How to argue against a particular delusion.
Hello everyone,
A friend of mine is a pretty die-hard Christian (shock horror, both of his parents are missionaries/vicars) and he often posts little sayings of some kind or another on Facebook, which I usually ignore. However, today he posted something that really irritated me for some reason:
"The more I look at science, the more in awe of God I become."
And just to make that worse, one of his Christian friends commented "Boom" as if he had made some kind of infallible argument. Somehow, I feel as though nothing I say will make any difference because they must be incredibly deluded already to believe that God just "invented" science. Basically, this is the guy who thinks he's a "modern and intelligent" Christian by saying that things like Noah's Ark are "just stories and aren't meant to be taken seriously by Christians". But if that is true, then why take ANY of the Bible seriously and where does he draw the line between stories and (what he believes is) the truth?
In the past I asked him and his friend where the evidence was. He claimed science (yes, seriously) helped prove Christianity and that Christianity was about "opening yourself" to it and believing, and then you "feel God" or whatever. How do you argue with someone like that??
What do you all say to religious people (not necessarily just Christians) who claim that science is just an invention of God? Is there a specific way to argue with someone who twists everything to awkwardly suit modern day thinking?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on -
"life sprang spontaneously" vs magical creation - we don't know exactly how it happened, vs "goddidit!" - exactly which "cold, hard facts" did you have in mind?
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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on -
Not many here here seem to be putting in much effort with you. We've had numerous apologists come and go on this site, and to be frank, you're much lower calibre than many who have come before. All of your arguments are trite, and it is readily apparent that you aren't particularly competent in making any of them. There is nothing new about you thus far, thus nothing to compel us to change when greater apologists than you have failed. Unless you can step up your game, you are wasting your time; your baby steps approach at arguing in favour of your deity only serves as mild amusement for the members here.
Abiogenesis is a work in progress, not a firm conclusion. I'd wager most biologists, and most atheists are just fine admitting we don't have all of the answers to such questions, yet we are still compelled to follow the best available evidence. At present time, that seems to lead to abiogenesis having occurred on Earth. This isn't something that requires faith; it merely requires intellectual honesty.
Personally, I am not really laughing or scoffing at Christianity much these days. It doesn't generally warrant the effort. Sometimes individual Christians are amusing though.
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Permalink Reply by Richard Bohn on -
That's fine, I am leaving your site anyway...ok stop clapping and cheering. As for trite, I think any question of your 'conclusions' will meet with the same dogged replies. To claim there is no God is a leap of faith in and of itself, because how can anything exist that your superior intellects aren't able to fathom. Also funny how lumping Christians in the same category as all religions, and all the atrocities committed is the fault of everyone in that category is fallacious at least, disingenuous at most. Yet I didn't hear any atheists taking the blame for the atrocities committed by atheists. The truth will prevail regardless of what we each conclude. I also apologize for sinking to the playground verbal antics of your colleagues...once again the Bible is right, that bad company corrupts good character. Glad I could provide a modicum of amusement--I am sure you are all so proud of yourselfs...take care, really.
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Permalink Reply by John Kelly on -
Okay seriously Richard, lumping Christians in the same category as all religions is logical best practice.
Christianity is a subset of a larger category called religion. When we look at the value of religion, we have to look at the entire set as a whole. It is the most logical of all ways to look at a set composed of many components.And also to claim there is no God is not a leap of faith. That is the point. What is worth arguing is not whether there "can be" or "can't be".
What is worth arguing is simply "does this thing that seems a possibility actually have enough evidence worth considering it"?
Because considering the possibility that for instance, the TV show Stargate is actually real and we just were seein reinactments of the real secret missions, is just not worth it. It is fine to just say "It isn't real". It isn't a logical leap to make reasoned assumptions.
What you have been afraid to actually argue is whether or not it is reasonable for a non-believer to accept belief in God. And that is all that actually matters. Because you are responsible to think honestly.
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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on
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That's fine, I am leaving your site anyway...ok stop clapping and cheering.
Stay. Go. It's cool either way. I just want it to be clear that your chance of effecting change in our hearts and minds is extremely low. Whether you want to chalk it up to us being obtuse, you being ineffectual, or some combination of the two is no sweat off my back, but I wanted to be honest with you on your chances so you have the chance to evaluate your time investment here.
I think any question of your 'conclusions' will meet with the same dogged replies.
We haven't even touched on my "conclusions", and I can say the same for a number of the users who have responded to you. I've seen them posting on the forums for quite some time now, and while I cannot say how deep their wellsprings of thought go, I can say you have barely rippled the surface. It is readily apparent you don't know know what it is we believe or why. There is diversity within the user base. Read John Kelly's post above this. He's given you an entry point to understanding where we come from. Why not try asking him some sincere questions? I bet he will give you some decent answers.
To claim there is no God is a leap of faith in and of itself, because how can anything exist that your superior intellects aren't able to fathom.
I don't personally make this claim philosophically. There isn't much need. What I will state is that God is an unreasonable and irrelevant hypothesis to my life on Earth which warrants consideration solely based on the cultural weight of its acceptance.
Also funny how lumping Christians in the same category as all religions, and all the atrocities committed is the fault of everyone in that category is fallacious at least, disingenuous at most. Yet I didn't hear any atheists taking the blame for the atrocities committed by atheists.
It really depends on how it is done, I suppose. I don't hold my Christian friends and family accountable for the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition, or the Pope being a general malevolent prick; however I may point out that religious adherents have the same human fallibilities as all people if they get high and mighty about their moral superiority. Why do I not do the same for atheism? Two reasons: 1) I already freely acknowledge that atheists are not inherently superior or inferior to religious folks of any denomination. 2) There is no atheist doctrine binding atheists philosophically to either violent or peaceful acts.
The truth will prevail regardless of what we each conclude.
Sure thing.
I also apologize for sinking to the playground verbal antics of your colleagues...once again the Bible is right, that bad company corrupts good character.
I don't care much one way or the other, but why apologize in one breath and then blame us in the next? Please stop accusing us of hubris and disingenuousness if this is how you are going to behave.
I am sure you are all so proud of yourselfs...take care, really.
I am neither proud nor ashamed. Not sure about anyone else. You take care too, and I hope your Christianity leads you on a fulfilling path.
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Permalink Reply by Unseen on -
So, to deny the existence of something absurd, like the idea that there's a full grown African elephant in the glove compartment of my car requires a "leap of faith"? How is it a leap of faith to withhold belief based on the complete lack of credible evidence for the God Proposition?
What are these so-called "atheist atrocities"? Hitler was raised a Christian. You can't be referring to him.
Christian atrocities have tended to be done in the NAME of the faith. If you're referring to the atrocities of, for instance, Stalin, they were political in nature, not religious.
You have been amusing mainly because you haven't done nearly as much thinking on the topic as you think you have. You came totally unprepared.
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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on
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RE: "Hitler was raised a Christian."
Though there can be no doubt that Martin Luther exhibited great courage in opposing the full force and extended reach of the Vatican, one must be a little conservative in the lavishment of praise of his work. Luther also helped spread anti-Jewish sentiments with his preaching and books such as his "The Jews and their lies," all supported through his interpretation of the Bible. One should not forget that Hitler (a Christian and great admirer of Luther, also German) and his holocaust probably could not have occurred without Luther’s influence and the support of Bible-believing German Christians.
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Permalink Reply by Richard Bohn on
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"The scientists found that a protein found only in a chicken's ovaries is necessary for the formation of the egg...The egg can therefore only exist if it has been created inside a chicken.The protein speeds up the development of the hard shell, which is essential in protecting the delicate yolk and fluids while the chick grows inside the egg, the report said.
"It had long been suspected that the egg came first but now we have the scientific proof that shows that in fact the chicken came first," said Dr. Colin Freeman, from Sheffield University's Department of Engineering Materials.
"The protein had been identified before and it was linked to egg formation, but by examining it closely we have been able to see how it controls the process," he said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38238685/ns/technology_and_science-scie...
So that's it in an eggshell, according to recent scientific findings - the chicken must have been here first, as the egg is formed with proteins found inside the chicken, claim modern day scientists.
still debateable? probably...
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Permalink Reply by Richard Bohn on
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Paul didn't care about the point? Now who is dancing with Tinkerbelle on the point of the pin? You can't prove God doesn't exist, and I can not prove to you He does, but creation screams it out. Many other passages point out created things as God's handiwork. You want to go from A to B? A, God loves you and will accept a humble you. B,you reject Him. Good luck with that.
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Permalink Reply by John Kelly on
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Who says we need to prove there isn't a God? That is just silly Richard.
I simply need to prove that it is dishonest thinking to begin to believe he does exist. That is all. Nobody should ever convert to Christianity, because doing it means you are making probability calls that aren't accurate.
Anyway the bible references that YHWH used to be a lesser deity under a bigger God named El. Which of these two gods are you talking about?
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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on
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RE: "God loves you and will accept a humble you."
"Religion has actually convinced people that there`s an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do..And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever, `til the end of time! ...But He loves you!"
-- George Carlin --
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