A friend of mine is a pretty die-hard Christian (shock horror, both of his parents are missionaries/vicars) and he often posts little sayings of some kind or another on Facebook, which I usually ignore. However, today he posted something that really irritated me for some reason:
"The more I look at science, the more in awe of God I become."
And just to make that worse, one of his Christian friends commented "Boom" as if he had made some kind of infallible argument. Somehow, I feel as though nothing I say will make any difference because they must be incredibly deluded already to believe that God just "invented" science. Basically, this is the guy who thinks he's a "modern and intelligent" Christian by saying that things like Noah's Ark are "just stories and aren't meant to be taken seriously by Christians". But if that is true, then why take ANY of the Bible seriously and where does he draw the line between stories and (what he believes is) the truth?
In the past I asked him and his friend where the evidence was. He claimed science (yes, seriously) helped prove Christianity and that Christianity was about "opening yourself" to it and believing, and then you "feel God" or whatever. How do you argue with someone like that??
What do you all say to religious people (not necessarily just Christians) who claim that science is just an invention of God? Is there a specific way to argue with someone who twists everything to awkwardly suit modern day thinking?
Glad to see you are back around here, John. I was wondering where you where you had been!
Yeah, I have ADD plus school is a bad mix for me. I have to stay away from here otherwise my brain-fogged days get even worse knowing there is something a lot more stimulating out there. Hopefully if I ever finish school, I can be around more.
Richard, what are you talking about with the chickens and eggs? Anyway, quoting the bible that nobody thinks is inspired doesn't accomplish anything. As Paul says in 1 Cor 9, if you want to win people you need to speak to them from their mindset.
An ancient cult was criticized for not making sense and they wrote that down about the really valid criticism. You can take comfort in that they explained away a lot like normal humans would do when what they figured out didn't come to pass, but since humans are prone to confirmation bias and belief perseverance, how do you actually figure out that you are not just being intellectually dishonest?
But when you actually violate logic, you go against what you would call the order of creation and truth. Logic just checks if something actually is tied to something else.
Many early church fathers knew this. That is why when Christ is called in the bible The Word and the name for logic and that title for Christ are from the same Greek word. That verse in 1 Cor is talking about speculative philosophies, not plain logic. You can't just blow off plain logic. By the way those passages largely had to do with the Greek reluctance to value bodily resurrection rather than the restoration of the spirit. Greeks saw little reason for there to be a body.
RE: "he intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." - that certainly explains why intelligent theists, if any there are, still believe in magic.
Richard, every time I encounter someone like you, I am filled with an indescribable sense of elation and relief that I am not someone like you.
History itself reveals that mankind's greatest minds - scholars, mathematicians, doctors, lawyers, historians, engineers, and yes, scientists and inventors - have been, and continue to be Christians.
David F. Coppedge at http://creationsafaris.com/wgcs.htm points out that:
This collection presents over 1600 mini-biographies of scientists of the Christian faith-including scholars, mathematicians, and theologians who advanced the cause of science. These Christians pioneered disciplines ranging from oceanography to astronomy, geology to biology, rocket science to genetics. The mini-biographies are presented in alphabetical order. Beginning March 2007 for ease of reference we are dividing each letter of the alphabet into its ownb separate page. Links to online websites are provided for those wishing to research a particular scientist. Researchers are invited to order the biographies by clicking on the hypertext, as well as check out the biographies published by Gale.
I have relied upon the lists of Henry Morris (Men of Science, Men of God (ISBN 0-890510-80-6), Mike Poole (the booklet God and the Scientists, ISBN 1-901796-02-7), Eric C. Barrett and David Fisher (Scientists Who Believe: 21 Tell Their Own Stories, ISBN 0-8024-7634-1), Paul M. Anderson (Professors Who Believe: The Spiritual Journeys of Christian Faculty, ISBN 0-8308-1599-6), Henry Schaefer III (website athttp://www.chem.uga.edu/doc/ResFacHFS.html and http://leaderu.com/offices/schaefer/docs/scientists.html), Dan Graves (Scientists of Faith: 48 Biographies of Historic Scientists and Their Christian Faith, ISBN 0-8254-2024-X and Doctors Who Followed Christ: Thirty-Two Biographies of Eminent Physicians and Their Christian Faith, ISBN 0-8254-2034-7, website http://www.rae.org/influsci.html), the NAHSTE Project (http://www.nahste.ac.uk/project/index.html), the School_of_Mathematics_and_Statistics University_of_St_Andrews,_Scotland (http://www-maths.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/), Colin Webster's essay athttp://www.cornerstoneuk.org.uk/q1_sci2.html, Dr. Don DeYoung's "Men and Women of Mathematics and of God," at http://www.creationresearch.org/creation_matters/98/cm9811.html, a small list of English scientists by P.S.Williams (BA - Cardiff, MA - Sheffield), from "Thinking Through. . . Jesus - Divine and Human?" at http://www.peter-s-williams.co.uk/The%20Real%20Jesus/Jesus.doc plus the databases at the online Gale Biography Resource Center, which include Merriam-Webster's Biographical Dictionary, Encyclopedia of World Biography, Notable Women Scientists, Contemporary Black Biography, Explorers and Discoverers of the World, Marquis Who's Who TM and Contemporary Authors Online.
Roughly a third of the scientists have biographies posted at The Galileo Project, a hypertext source of information on the life and work of Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) and the scientists of his time. The project, whose homepage is here: http://galileo.rice.edu/ is supported by the Office of the Vice President of Computing at Rice University. The initial stages were made possible by a grant from the Council on Library Resources to Fondren Library. Contributors to the Project are noted here: http://galileo.rice.edu/About/galileo_development.html. Albert Van Helden, Lynette Autrey Professor of History at Rice University, is responsible for the written text in the Project (except where otherwise noted). The Project features a Catalog of the Scientific Community of the 16th and 17th Centuries. http://galileo.rice.edu/Catalog/catalog.html. This is a searchable database of detailed histories of over 600 individuals who made significant contributions to Western science. These histories have been compiled by Richard S. Westfall, Department of History and Philosophy of Science at Indiana University. From this I've compiled a list of 522 Galileo-era scientists known to be Christians, with links to biographies at The Galileo Project. For quick and easy reference, researchers can access this list here:http://www.tektonics.org/scim/galilmony.html
Database information can be found at: http://www.galegroup.com/BiographyRC/, and at a library that subscribes to the Gale Biography service. "Not in Gale" simply means the scientist has no extensive biography in the online Gale databases; however, their bios may be found in the print editions. A separate section lists an additional 35 science practitioners who are probable Christians, though I have been unable to confirm this through online research.
This listing is by no means definitive, or complete. There are/have been literally thousands of Christians involved in the sciences.
Dr. Francis S. Collins is Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute at the National Institute of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. He currently leads the Human Genome Project, directed at mapping and sequencing all of human DNA, and determining aspects of its function. His previous research has identified the genes responsible for cystic fibrosis, neurofibromatosis, Huntington's disease and Hutchison-Gilford progeria syndrome. He is a member of the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences. For the rest of his credentials, click on the link here: http://www.genome.gov/10000980. Collins spoke with Bob Abernethy of PBS, posted online at http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/transcripts/collins.html, in which he summaries the compatability of fact and faith thusly:
"I think there's a common assumption that you cannot both be a rigorous, show-me-the-data scientist and a person who believes in a personal God. I would like to say that from my perspective that assumption is incorrect; that, in fact, these two areas are entirely compatible and not only can exist within the same person, but can exist in a very synthetic way, and not in a compartmentalized way. I have no reason to see a discordance between what I know as a scientist who spends all day studying the genome of humans and what I believe as somebody who pays a lot of attention to what the Bible has taught me about God and about Jesus Christ. Those are entirely compatible views.
"Science is the way -- a powerful way, indeed -- to study the natural world. Science is not particularly effective -- in fact, it's rather ineffective -- in making commentary about the supernatural world. Both worlds, for me, are quite real and quite important. They are investigated in different ways. They coexist. They illuminate each other. And it is a great joy to be in a position of being able to bring both of those points of view to bear in any given day of the week. The notion that you have to sort of choose one or the other is a terrible myth that has been put forward, and which many people have bought into without really having a chance to examine the evidence. I came to my faith not, actually, in a circumstance where it was drummed into me as a child, which people tend to assume of any scientist who still has a personal faith in God; but actually by a series of compelling, logical arguments, many of them put forward by C. S. Lewis, that got me to the precipice of saying, 'Faith is actually plausible.' You still have to make that step. You will still have to decide for yourself whether to believe. But you can get very close to that by intellect alone."
Scientists of the Christian Faith -- Alphabetical Index
Use the guide links below according to scientist last name.[A] [B] [C] [D] [E] [F] [G] [H] [I] [J] [K] [L] [M] [N] [O] [P-Q][R] [S] [T] [U-V][W] [X, Y, Z]
I would contend that the Christian scientists made their discoveries in spite of their beliefs and not because of them.
Actually, Richard, the egg, because despite your creationist theories to the contrary, dinosaurs and reptiles were laying eggs long before chickens evolved from dinos --
That's once in a row!