An army is a blunt weapon. Send it into a populated area where the enemy doesn't wear a uniform and innocents are going to die. This is happening right now in Gaza. Many people are quick to blame Israel for these deaths, calling them "unnecessary" or even "war crimes."

Lately, Israel has had to endure unguided missiles raining down on its territory. Since they are unguided, the people launching them, Hamas soldiers, aren't conducting surgical strikes. In fact, it appears they  would be happy if they hit schools, hospitals, markets, and other heavily-populated targets.

So, imagine you are Israel. Do you have another way of attempting to put a stop to the daily barrage of missiles?

This is not an invitation to criticize the creation of Israel after WW2. It's not an invitation to criticize policies you think led up to Hamas.

I'm only asking what's the alternative to sending in its troops to attempt to drive Hamas out of Gaza?

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10 to 1, “Unseen”?  Surely you jest.  It’s more like 100 to 1.

(I take responsibility for saying 10 to 1, even though I know it's higher. The exact number matters of course, but the same concepts still apply even if we can assume that someday the ratio falls to 10 to 1.)

There IS a better solution: for Israelis to treat Palestinians like they were human beings, instead of trash who are trespassing on land they believe Yahweh gave to the Jews thousands of years ago. 

And while the Palestinians don't belielve Yahweh gave the land to the Israelis, I bet you think that Yahweh gave it to THEM instead.

BTW, you are aware that a lot of Israelis are not practicing Jews, aren't you. They are ethnically Jewish but not religious Jews.

You're right: the Palestinians should look at the fate of the Native Americans.

I don't believe in rights outside of contracts or other agreements. There are no metaphysical rights. The rights you have are the ones you can get.

The Israelis are doing quite well without nukes, which Israel would not to be downwind of.

Unseen; OF COURSE I don’t believe Yahweh gave the lands to the Palestinians, since there was and is no such entity as Yahweh.  The fact remains that the Palestinians were there long before the British parked Jewish refugees there, since the United States flatly rejected the idea that WE should show the compassion to help those refugees.  We turned back the first shipload of Jews who tried to escape  the Nazi slaughters and sent them back to Hitler’s camps. 

Indeed, a lot of Israelis are not practicing Jews; and a lot of them despise what the Israeli leaders like Netanyahu are doing to placate the orthodox Jews who still wield great power in the state.  Are you aware that many Israelis, particularly young ones, want the government to stop building settlements on Palestinian territory?  They want to live in peace and mutual respect with Palestinians.  But Jewish leaders want Palestinians exterminated.  There are indeed a lot of radicalized Muslim Palestinians who would eradicate Israel if they could; but they can’t, any more than Iraq could have attacked and conquered the U.S.

Incidentally, why does the Israeli government and military not help the U.S.-led coalition against ISIS, which has explicitly threatened to destroy Israel?  I’ll tell you why.  Because Israeli leaders know very well that ISIS can not now or ever be able to defeat Israel in battle.  Neither could Palestinians, if they tried, as they did in ‘67 and ’72, ever defeat Israel.  Israel doesn’t attack Gaza and other  Palestinian territory because it is afraid for its own safety from those pitifully ineffective little rockets some deluded extremists shoot at them; it does so because they want to steal that land for themselves.  And if that takes genocide, so be it, right?  At least that’s what you appear to be endorsing.

Unseen; OF COURSE I don’t believe Yahweh gave the lands to the Palestinians, since there was and is no such entity as Yahweh. The fact remains that the Palestinians were there long before the British parked Jewish refugees there, since the United States flatly rejected the idea that WE should show the compassion to help those refugees. We turned back the first shipload of Jews who tried to escape the Nazi slaughters and sent them back to Hitler’s camps.

Well, I think in retrospect the Americans of that time were right in opposing the creation of Israel, given the shitload of problems. However, at some point those European Jews aren't going back to Europe anymore than all the non-Native Americans are going back to their ancestral homes.

Besides, the Palestinians probably drove someone else out when they got there. But even if they didn't (which I doubt), that's not how these things work.

Indeed, a lot of Israelis are not practicing Jews; and a lot of them despise what the Israeli leaders like Netanyahu are doing to placate the orthodox Jews who still wield great power in the state. Are you aware that many Israelis, particularly young ones, want the government to stop building settlements on Palestinian territory? They want to live in peace and mutual respect with Palestinians. But Jewish leaders want Palestinians exterminated. There are indeed a lot of radicalized Muslim Palestinians who would eradicate Israel if they could; but they can’t, any more than Iraq could have attacked and conquered the U.S.

While I am sure it applies to some, I don't think you can back up the notion that "Jewish leaders want Palestinians exterminated" as a broad generalization and without some qualifications which you've left unstated. But as you note, it's an internal political matter in Israel, and one which will likely change, given time, since the attitudes of the young are liberalizing.

Incidentally, why does the Israeli government and military not help the U.S.-led coalition against ISIS, which has explicitly threatened to destroy Israel? I’ll tell you why. Because Israeli leaders know very well that ISIS can not now or ever be able to defeat Israel in battle. Neither could Palestinians, if they tried, as they did in ‘67 and ’72, ever defeat Israel. Israel doesn’t attack Gaza and other Palestinian territory because it is afraid for its own safety from those pitifully ineffective little rockets some deluded extremists shoot at them; it does so because they want to steal that land for themselves. And if that takes genocide, so be it, right? At least that’s what you appear to be endorsing.

Israel is a small country surrounded by enemies. I can well understand why they don't want to get involved with the ISIS thing, which would not only divert their limited resources to a battle still pretty far away AND give the pro-ISIS Muslim clerics one more gripe against Israel. The Hamas rockets generally miss their targets because they are unguided missiles designed to instill terror because when you don't know where one is likely to hit, where do you hide? At least most of the time the Palestinians understand where the targets are, for the sad reason that Hamas makes them stay there.

If Israel really wanted genocide, there are certainly efficient ways of doing it.

Tell you what, Unseen: you think about Hamas throwing some of its people into a losing war just for the “fuck of it,”  and I’ll think of the Republican/neocons as throwing tens of thousands of foolish Americans into one losing war after another just for the fuck of it.  The only war in my lifetime that may have been necessary and righteous was the one against Germany.  Japan was never a credible threat, except for the islands that we stole from Spain in bloody battles.  And, most Americans don’t know that we never declared war on Germany, mostly because Republicans, like Prescott Bush, virulently opposed losing Hitler’s business.  We had no choice, though, because Hitler declared war on us.  Every war of ours after 1945 has been unnecessary, immoral, and costly in lives and treasure.  But, hey, what the fuck, right?

But, getting back to Hamas: I fail to see how indiscriminately slaughtering thousands of innocent women and children is the appropriate means of confronting Hamas.

Why doesn’t Israel fight the much more existential threat  - ISIS?  Could it be that they are afraid of someone who can fight back effectively?  Just wondering. 

As to the “alternative:” if the religiously-driven Israeli government were to treat Palestinians honorably, kindly, and respectfully, like allowing them free access to their holy sites in Jerusalem, or not confiscating their homes for the sake of expansion, Hamas would gradually dry up and blow away. 

+2

If I may interject with a bucket of cold water, the biggest problem with this type of discussion is the implication that there must be some simple solution to the problem. I can understand the frustration, and I feel it too. But poking at it with a stick just evokes shallow, primitive responses. (I'm not saying this is your doing, Dale.)

I'm no fan of any of the post-WW2 wars involving US troops. I myself was marching against the one in Vietnam.

Israel attempts to warn civilians, but Hamas uses the old "human shield" tactic. Yes, I know occasionally their attacks go astray. So does any military's. 

It's no mystery why Israel isn't involved in the war on ISIS. They're surrounded by enemies and have limited resources and don't need to give the extremist Muslim clerics any additional recruiting materials. I'm sure they're glad to let the US, Europe, and some of the other Muslim countries who oppose ISIS handle it.

Your last paragraph is speculation masquerading as fact and commits the fallacy variously known as "the unavailable statistic" or "the road not taken" and a couple other names. You only know what happened, not what might or might have happened.

Unseen,

"Human shields" can be an act of of civil disobedience

Human Shield protectd pot smoker from arrest in Florida

When Israeli's kidnap Palestinian children, lash them to the front of assault vehicles ( as shown in many photos and videos, that must not, in he rwisted logic of a Zionist apologist, count as a human shield.

It has been demonstrated that warning to civilians have been used to get the civilians into the open where they are better targets.

Lets look at that "last paragraph" you refer to

"As to the “alternative:” if the religiously-driven Israeli government were to treat Palestinians honorably, kindly, and respectfully, like allowing them free access to their holy sites in Jerusalem, or not confiscating their homes for the sake of expansion, Hamas would gradually dry up and blow away."

In Novembeer, a bill was introdued into the Knesset 

 affirming Israel as a religious state

Fact Israel has a religiously driven government

Fact: Before the the creation of Israel Jews, Muslims, Christians co inhabited the region in relative peace.

The last sentence is somewhat speculative, but History shows that oppression helps terrorist recruit followers, which even you admit o in your comment..

FYI, Israel is the largest nuclear power in the region, wiht over 100 nuclear warheads in their arsenal

"Human shields" can be an act of of civil disobedience

Human Shield protectd pot smoker from arrest in Florida

When Israeli's kidnap Palestinian children, lash them to the front of assault vehicles ( as shown in many photos and videos, that must not, in he rwisted logic of a Zionist apologist, count as a human shield.

OMG, you're equating people wanting to protect pot smokers from arrest to civilians being forced by Hamas to remain near a military target? By what logic?

I googled on "children lashed to israeli army vehicle" and found one incident. You make it sound like a widespread practice bordering on policy. My Lai was an incident in the war in Vietnam, but it was contrary to policy.

It has been demonstrated that warning to civilians have been used to get the civilians into the open where they are better targets.

Once again, "have been used" can mean it's something soldiers did on their own and not an Israeli policy. Got a link anywhere showing that this is a very common practice sanctioned by the Israeli government?

Lets look at that "last paragraph" you refer to

"As to the “alternative:” if the religiously-driven Israeli government were to treat Palestinians honorably, kindly, and respectfully, like allowing them free access to their holy sites in Jerusalem, or not confiscating their homes for the sake of expansion, Hamas would gradually dry up and blow away."

In November, a bill was introdued into the Knesset affirming Israel as a religious state. Fact Israel has a religiously driven government.

England has an official religion, as do many countries.

What does "religiously driven" mean?

Fact: Before the the creation of Israel Jews, Muslims, Christians co inhabited the region in relative peace.

No doubt the creation of Israel was a mistake of historic proportions, but it's a fact now.

The last sentence is somewhat speculative, but History shows that oppression helps terrorist recruit followers, which even you admit in your comment.

So, Palestinian terrorists are lining up against Hamas(?). Anyway, as long as Israel is responding to terror attacks, we shouldn't be second-guessing them. They are there, we are not.

FYI, Israel is the largest nuclear power in the region, wiht over 100 nuclear warheads in their arsenal.

So?

Sure - withdraw to the 1967 boundaries, stop illegally seizing Palestinian land, bulldozing Palestinian farms, allowing illegal settlements, proposing a state where non-Jews are 'secondary citizens' (hard to believe that a post-holocaust population can't see the horrific irony of that one) - and then once Israel has stopped committing grotesque daily crimes against humanity, demand the world helps to protect their borders against the likes of the disgusting Hamas.


The difficulty is, they have decades of terrible crimes to atone for and absolutely no intention of doing anything other than bleating out the old 'Hamas is bad' line, which - while true - is completely irrelevant when considering the terrible acts committed by Israel.

Right now its very difficult to support Israel while they drift closer and closer to true fascism.

Your starting premise is pretty horrific too: 'cleansing Hamas out of Gaza' is also the language of fascism.  Cleansing?  Really?  Are you aware of the resonance of that term?

How about Israel stops creating the conditions where Hamas can recruit so spectacularly easily?  It really is hard to conclude to any disinterested observer that Israel has any appetite for peace: it seems that a good chunk of the political elite believe that an effective permanent state of war suits them well.  And I think it does in a narrow kind of way.

Our (I'm a Brit) experience in Northern Ireland was exactly that: stop making it so very easy for the IRA to recruit, inject large amounts of cash into the infrastructure, stop the Unionists owning the public rhetoric - and we now have a dramatically improved - though not perfect - situation.

If the IRA charter was the destruction of the UK and refusal to even recognize it's existence, then you may have the analogy.

I'm no fan of how Israel was created, but If I look at it from the Israeli's perspective, preemptive, strong decisive action was how they survived Nasser. Remember that after the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty of 1979, Israel withdrew from the Sinai Peninsula as promised. With the 2011 Egyptian revolution, now some of those old tensions are reemerging, but Israel lived up to it's side of the treaty.

Israel played the US/Soviet cold war smart and worked with France to develop nuclear arms and gained many of the US's best conventional weapons. They will negotiate from a place of strength, and frankly, in the Middle East that seems to be the only way to achieve peace. It really is up to Hamas to change their policy and negotiate for peace. Unfortunately that is not their goal, and they will suffer because of their non-compromising ideology. The rest of the world recognizes Israel as a country. Hamas is an religious jihadist cult of death with a ridiculous political agenda.

The only other solution is for the Palestinian people to ditch Hamas and I am guessing that would also be a bloody proposition. Could Israel help this happen by treating the people caught in the middle better...Absolutely! That is probably the only real solution and Israel is not pursuing that solution. It has risks.

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