An army is a blunt weapon. Send it into a populated area where the enemy doesn't wear a uniform and innocents are going to die. This is happening right now in Gaza. Many people are quick to blame Israel for these deaths, calling them "unnecessary" or even "war crimes."

Lately, Israel has had to endure unguided missiles raining down on its territory. Since they are unguided, the people launching them, Hamas soldiers, aren't conducting surgical strikes. In fact, it appears they  would be happy if they hit schools, hospitals, markets, and other heavily-populated targets.

So, imagine you are Israel. Do you have another way of attempting to put a stop to the daily barrage of missiles?

This is not an invitation to criticize the creation of Israel after WW2. It's not an invitation to criticize policies you think led up to Hamas.

I'm only asking what's the alternative to sending in its troops to attempt to drive Hamas out of Gaza?

Tags: Gaza, Hamas, Israel

Views: 2275

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

@Erock68la - 

And yet:

Israel:  29 dead, 2 of which were civilian.

Gaza:  576 dead, ~70% of which were civilian.

There is something bizarre, in fact, about the idea of “proportionality” being used as a moral criticism against Israel. A proportional response by Israel to the attacks of the last seven years would mean that every time a rocket is fired by Hamas at an Israeli civilian center, Israel would respond by firing a rocket at a civilian center in Gaza. Israel, of course, rejected that, then and now. Still, when Hamas violated the ceasefire yet again and got its hands on longer-range rockets, something had to be done. (source)

Hamas always finds a way to refuse a cease-fire or to break it. Why? BECAUSE THEY WANT THE CONFLICT TO CONTINUE!!! If they don't care about their civilians, does it then become Israel's responsibility?

@Unseen I have argued for proportionality by Israel in this discussion, but my quoting casualty statistics this time was in response to what you said about Hamas' targets being civilian/terroristic and Israel's targets being military. These numbers clearly don't support that. Or else both sides are really inept or unlucky at hitting their targets.

You are actually right about one thing, Unseen. The numbers certainly don't indicate moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas.

The statistics bear out that Hamas will NOT let their civilians get out of the way of Israeli attacks. Israel warns of impending attacks by leafletting, but Hamas insists that they not leave so that people like you can have casualty counts to go on about.

I'm only asking what's the alternative to sending in its troops to attempt to cleanse Hamas out of Gaza?

That's an interesting choice of words: "cleanse". But I digress. What are the options for Israel?

1. Tolerate the rocket attacks on Israel.

2. Agree to Hamas' demands: allow freer movement of goods and people across the borders in exchange for agreeing to a cease fire (which will likely last a few years).

3. Target Hamas with air strikes only and accept the civilian casualties, which probably isn't enough to stop the rocket attacks on Israel.

4. Invade Gaza on the ground, target Hamas, accept the civilian casualties and stop the rocket attacks on Israel (likely for a few years).

5. Bomb and shell Gaza indiscriminately until every building is destroyed and everyone is dead, and stop the rocket attacks for good.

Israel prefers option 4, with some of the "indiscriminate" aspects of option 5. It should be no surprise that Israel persists with half measures and never goes all the way to option 5. The restraining factor is that overt "ethnic cleansing" of 1.8 million Palestinians in Gaza would be illegal, immoral, and perhaps terminal for its international relations, not that Israel has ever been overly concerned with the former.

Only one thing is going to end this cycle of violence: if proof emerges that Israel's enemies pose an existential threat. For instance, Hamas turns up with powerful, accurate missiles, or nerve gas, or biological agents, or something scary like that. Once Israel has that kind of pretext the leadership will have no cause to restrain themselves. They'll pound all of Gaza to blood and rubble, claim self defense, and solve the problem once and for all. Until or unless that happens, Israel will stick with half measures like option 4.

They'll pound all of Gaza to blood and rubble, claim self defense, and solve the problem once and for all.

Substitute Israel for Gaza and that is the clearly stated goal of much of the Muslim world, including the Hamas fanatics. They simply can't abide by the existence of Israel. The idea that somehow Hamas will turn peaceful EVEN IF ITS DEMANDS ARE MET strikes me as painfully naive.

BTW, Israel at least makes a show of attempting cease fires, whereas Hamas either rejects them or says they're accepting whereas in reality they are just using the cease fire as an opportunity for more attacks.

Give me a call when at least a cease fire starts working.

Substitute Israel for Gaza and that is the clearly stated goal of much of the Muslim world, including the Hamas fanatics. They simply can't abide by the existence of Israel. The idea that somehow Hamas will turn peaceful EVEN IF ITS DEMANDS ARE MET strikes me as painfully naive.

I didn't describe any scenario where Hamas turns peaceful, unless you count option 5 where they're peaceful because dead (along with everyone else in Gaza).

I suppose there is an option 6 where Hamas meets the stated goal of its charter and obliterates Israel. If this demand is met then Hamas would really turn peaceful because there's no enemy left to fight. Absent an errant nuke or two, it's safe to file this scenario under 'impossible' (or 'painfully naive' if you like), which is why I omitted it from the list. Hamas cannot obliterate Israel, but Hamas it would if it could. Israel can obliterate Hamas and all of Gaza, but it chooses not to.

That's the only way I see the cycle of violence ending: the total destruction of one side (Israel) or the other (Hamas and company). Israel is more powerful so-- absent a surprise from Hamas-- smart money is on the heavyweight to win this fight eventually.

Until then, the cycle of violence goes on indefinitely. Hamas launches a homemade-rocket attack on Israel. Israel retaliates with overwhelming force. The body count piles up until a ceasefire is declared. Humanitarian aid pours into Gaza and Hamas re-arms. A few years later, they attack again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Both sides claim that God (as Allah or Yahweh) gave them the land that is now Israel. if you accept the politicized lineages, the two sides have a history as blood enemies dating back to the time of Moses. The conflict will go on until one side is wiped out.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

God is on both of their sides.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

I don't see anyone asking "Why doesn't Hamas simply stop lobbing missiles across the border into Israel?" 

I guess this is a question no one wants to ask or hear answered. 

Stop the aggression on Israel and Israel will have no reason to be there.

No one here can possibly try to give an objective analysis to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict  (like Hamas's rockets) because they're too busy refuting your countless gross generalization and super-hyperbole in these comments. If you'd calm down the rhetoric even a little...perhaps a reasonable discussion could actually start.

The Qassam rockets used by Hamas, are of a very simple design, are unguided, inaccurate and have a range of about 10 miles. By contrast,  Israel has naval vessels (including submarines ), an air force equipped with jets, helicopters, and drones, laser guided missiles, and mechanized ground forces  with tanks, armored troop transport, armored bulldozers, and even  unmanned ground vehicles.

  In recent fighting, Hamas rockets have killed a total of 32 Israelis, only 3 of them civilians,  while over 600 Palestinians have died from Israeli weapons, a dozen of whom were unconfirmed militants.

  In current and past hostilities Israel has targeted noncombatants. They are known to drop leaflets on Gaza instructing Gazans to seek safety in schools and hospitals then target the schools and hospitals with laser guided missiles.
Over the years, Israel has deployed weapons such as Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME) bombs, thermobaric weaponsdepleted uranium projectiles, and white phosphorus against civilian crowds in Gaza.

   Gaza has been under siege from Israel since 2007. with almost 2 million people crowded into about 140 square miles, Gaza has been described as "an open air prison".

  What should America do about this.We should stop providing financial and military aid to Israel. We need to stop supporting Israel in the UN.

They are known to drop leaflets on Gaza instructing Gazan to seek safety in schools and hospitals then target the schools and hospitals with laser guided missiles.

If so, then why, when I google on...

israel leaflets seek "shelter in schools"

do I come up dry?

In fact, they lately have been using longer range rockets.

I'm not sure that whether they target or not reveals some sort of moral distinction. Imagine a kid on a freeway overpass holding a cinder block. Is there some great degree of moral difference if he tries to hit a car or truck or simply tosses the block over his shoulder?

However, there is a difference in another dimension. When one targets, at least there is some military purpose to the attack. When one simply lobs a missile into a territory that is a classical example of a terroristic attack.

Israel is under attack from Gaza. Hamas builds tunnels into Israel so they can conduct terror raids. It launches missiles into Israel. Hamas WANTS this war more than Israel does and thus bears the ultimate blame for any loss of life.

Read more about Hamas rockets here.

"

If so, then why, when I google on...

israel leaflets seek "shelter in schools""

   Try googling "IDF Leaflets". You'll get about 118,000 results.

From the IDF Website:  

IDF Drops Warning Leaflets in Gaza.

Hamas politicians were elected by Gazans in their first democratic election ever.

The reason the Hamas politicians won, was simple,  They stated their objectives in 2006 in their List of Change and Reforms

The list is quite different from the original Hamas covenant of 1988.

  It appears that the Hamas rockets are not randomly lobbed into Israel. Judging from the relatively low percentage of Israeli civilian casualties, it appears the rockets are launched on a heading and trajectory toward military targets.

   You are correct on larger rockets, as Hamas has built a few M75 rockets with a 40 mile range.in the last month

.

RSS

Forum

New site

Started by umar in Announcements. Last reply by Pope Beanie 4 hours ago. 18 Replies

gay marriage decision

Started by Dale Headley in Small Talk. Last reply by Beth yesterday. 5 Replies

Is there an energy resource with such attributes?

Started by ỮŊĐÜムņĮØńệ尺 in Physics, Astronomy, Cosmology. Last reply by Pope Beanie 7 hours ago. 5 Replies

Events

Blog Posts

My Purity Ring

Posted by Michelle Varni on July 5, 2015 at 7:18pm 2 Comments

Services we love!

Advertise with ThinkAtheist.com

© 2015   Created by umar.

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service