Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Reggie on April 4, 2010 at 9:59pm

I don't bow my head, clasp my hands together, or close my eyes during prayers. I sit there silently and respectfully until they are done chanting. I usually amuse myself by watching younger children look around at all the chanting people in confusion. Sometimes they will meet my gaze and I will give them a wink to let them know that I share their bafflement.

You are not being an asshole. Unless you are also rolling your eyes, guffawing, or doing something else to mock their rituals. You don't believe and you don't need to pretend to. People that expect such dishonesty from you are being assholes. But get used to it because that is how Christians are, even family members, when dealing with someone who doesn't go along with their silly fantasy and games.

So far, no one has confronted me over not pretending to talk to an invisible god, but maybe they don't know because they all have their eyes squeezed shut (in more ways than one).

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Permalink Reply by James on April 4, 2010 at 10:02pm

I don't think you're in the wrong at all. I never had a problem with saying grace with my family, because we hardly ever did to begin with. My wife's family does, but I simply keep my eyes open and head raised. No one has ever made a point to say anything, although I did have to 'pass' when saying it was offered to me once. They pretty much know I don't believe, but I suspect my mother in law considers it a phase...

If your family wants to be judgmental, then they are the ones in the wrong. It's not like you are raising a stink and trying to keep them from talking to their invisible sky daddy. You simply wish to not take part. That is your right, and should be respected. Kudos to you for standing up to yourself.

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Permalink Reply by Graham E. Lau on April 4, 2010 at 10:38pm

If you don't want to pray, that's absolutely fine. They are the ones who should be open-minded about it and respect your decision. I do not pray. Not even to make someone else happy. It's just not me and goes against who I am. However, at parties that are hosted by someone who prays and who wants to pray at the dinner table, I will sit quietly and patiently and maybe even meditate while they pray together. That way, we're still enjoying the moment together in our own ways. I'm sure some of the family doesn't like this, but that's not my problem.

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Permalink Reply by Gina on April 4, 2010 at 10:40pm

I went through something like that when I was younger, I just really did not want to play those games at all. Luckily for me my family wasn't the praying or religious ritual type. It was when I was at someone else's home that I would experience this. I always played along out of respect to the host, but I didn't like it one iota. Now that I'm older, it doesn't bother me anymore. I actually like the holding hands in a circle part. I still don't like the appeals to a sky fairy, but it never lasts very long. I'm thinking it's probably more difficult to work through this when it's your own family. Good luck to you!

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Hargrave on April 4, 2010 at 10:49pm

im not even holding hands. sometimes i even step out of the room. i dont watch. i want to be as far removed as possible. i am trying to make a bold statement.

thanks from all of you. i worried quite a bit that maybe i should just have been partaking in the prayer (if even just standing there holding hands with my eyes open) to support and comfort my family. i have skipped out on many family prayers over the past year or so and while it feels awkward right then, i feel better about it later. you guys help that escalate. thanks.

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Permalink Reply by CannedAm on April 5, 2010 at 12:16am

Neither my birth family nor my husband's family clasp one another's hands in prayer so I at least get to skip that happy ritual. Since I was at least 15, I've not bowed my head, closed my eyes, or "Amen"ed the pre-meal prayer. My husband's family is Catholic and they genuflect. I've never genuflected. Why would I? It means nothing to me. My husband, also atheist, does still bow his head and genuflect and amen after the prayer, though I think it's a mix of respect for his parents and lifelong habit. In a Catholic service (funerals, weddings) he'll go through all the motions the other members do except communion and singing along. When I have meals at my home I don't offer a prayer of course. My inlaws have never said anything (they wouldn't. They're Canadian. It wouldn't be polite. ) My mother has spoken up and asked for a prayer. I've told her I don't pray, but she and anyone else who wants to is welcome to. So she does and I simply remain silent and wait for it to be over.

I've always, since childhood, gotten a kick out of how my parents seem to suddenly speak a foreign language when praying. Lots of "thee's" "thou's" and "art's" in there. :D Simply further confirmed my skepticism once it began to develop.

I don't think you're being an ass. I also think you've got to do what you've got to do. If you feel that strongly about it, then you need to act. Prayer doesn't bother me so much. Preaching pisses me off. I won't stand for it.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on April 5, 2010 at 12:31am

"i am trying to be an example."

No doubt your family thinks you serve as a bad example!

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Hargrave on April 5, 2010 at 1:03am

i know they think i am the wrong example. im just looking for confirmation that i am doing the right thing despite disrespecting my family

im am very very very very very firm in what i believe. but at the same time, how far do you take it before you are just being stubborn? thats the question i am asking. i dont really need someone to tell me that they are thinking i suck, i know they think i suck.

think of it this way... the kid next door believes in santa... you dont. how do you handle that? that is what i feel that i am facing. i am boldly standing in the childs face and saying "no matter what your parents tell you, there is no santa". think of it that way, you may be more sympathetic.

do i need to try and make my family feel stupid or insulted, or should i just know what i know and hold hands because it makes them feel better. should i respect my family or myself? respecting my family doesnt change how i feel, disrespecting them changes how they feel.

its not about whos right or wrong on this level, its about a concern for the feelings of the ones you love. my bowing my head for 10 seconds doesnt hurt me, but not doing it hurts them. this is the predicament.

i dont pray with my family.

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on April 5, 2010 at 11:22am

Allow me to both agree and disagree. ;-)

I agree with Michel, but if he is being disrespectful in ways, perhaps even unwittingly, then maybe he needs to correct for that and travel the higher road. This doesn't mean that he must coddle their beliefs, respect them in the least, or that the higher road would at all be effective in achieving whatever goal he has with his family in regards to his atheism.

When I am a guest at the table in someone else's home, if the host wants to pray, so be it. But it is not right that I demand a Carl Sagan quote to be recited at the table, too. In my own home, no one prays. If a guest requests a prayer, I will tell them to do so in their head so as to not disturb my appetite while I eat.

If he lives with his parents, he may have to be a little more accepting of certain traditions and rituals around the dinner table. That doesn't mean he needs to participate in the prayer, but he should not be leaving the table, in a huff or otherwise.

Not respecting something is not the same as disrespecting something.

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on April 6, 2010 at 8:15am

But this is family. By "suffering" from his difference, by not aknowledging his coming-out, they disrecpect him.

Yep. Sounds like family, alright. ;-)

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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on April 6, 2010 at 5:21pm

I'm not saying that you are wrong in any sense. I'm saying that in the interest of salvaging a good relationship with his family, perhaps he should simply show respect for their wishes... in their home.

As with most things, there's more than one side to that issue. Is that salvaging a good relationship, or simply avoiding a latent, but already existing conflict? Personally, I want honest and sincere relationships with the people close to me, not passive-aggressive complacency.

The 'in their home' thing is a little strange to me. For the most part, it's not something I grew up with. Sure, rules change to a certain degree depending on who's house it is, but those rules are always applied evenly to everyone, and everyone has equal freedom to be themselves and voice their thoughts without condemnation. It's uncivil to invite someone into my home and then shake my head at them for choosing to pray or not pray a the dinner table (or whatever). If I have an opinion on the matter, I should strike up a dialog or just keep it to myself entirely.

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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on April 6, 2010 at 6:06pm

Yes. And when I am in my parent's home, if they choose to pray before a meal (particularly on a religious holiday), they should be allowed to do so without me storming out of the room and causing a big stink over it. They should also respect my choice not to join the prayer as I sit quietly by and let them do their thing.

I am not sure if you did or did not miss the point. If my mom or dad shook their head at my beliefs, or patronized me by telling me I'd grow out of it, then they aren't respecting me or my beliefs. I don't think relationships in which I am not respected are healthy.

I guess my whole point in this discussion is that we, as atheists, have to make concessions for our religious family members at times if we wish to remain in their 'good graces'.

Okay, sure, but perhaps we simply live differently here. If I can't be respected as myself around my family, then they won't remain in my good graces. I won't ever turn my back on my family or disown them, but I won't spend time with them if they can't show the most basic of courtesies to me -- the very same courtesies I give them without fail.

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