Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Reggie on April 7, 2010 at 4:29pm

It looks like he left the site. Why do an inordinate amount of people pack up and leave when people disagree with them? This wasn't even a contentious debate.

Permalink Reply by Reggie on April 6, 2010 at 7:05pm

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Can't say I disagree with anyone's approach at the fundamental level (no pun intended).

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on April 6, 2010 at 7:45pm

It is obvious that I am not as militant about my atheism when it comes to my family as some of you are and that's great.

I'm with you most of the way through, but this is the part where you lose me. What's militant about it? What is militant about demanding equal respect?

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on April 7, 2010 at 1:32pm

Are we done picking nits off this dead horse now?

While the dismissive flippancy is certainly appreciated, I'm neither nitpicking nor beating a dead horse. It was a sincere question. There is a considerable difference in what you deem to be militant and what I deem to be militant, which is clear now.

You also don't need to keep repeating that it's only your take. I'm not calling you wrong. <--- Now you can call it nitpicking.

Permalink Reply by Reggie on April 5, 2010 at 11:11am

The statement you are trying to make is very threatening and frightening to them. They fear for your immortal soul, etc.

We often say that, but I really am thinking that the affront to atheism often is due to intellectual laziness and the aversion to different ideas. Do we really think that Christians fear for our immortal souls? I know they say that, but I think they say it because that is what they were taught to say when justifying the marginalization of people who won't conform to the group think. They are not frightened by our ideas, they are disgusted because we refuse to fit in and accept the norm.

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on April 5, 2010 at 11:45am

My statement that it frightens and threatens them wasn't meant to be an in depth explanation, only a description of the reaction itself.

Fair enough. I've just seen so much ugliness from Christians over the past week and their feeble labeling and excuses for it have chapped my ass.

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on April 5, 2010 at 11:07am

There is definitely a blurred and dynamic line between what is going too far and what is acceptable, and it is different for different people and different situations.

I can certainly understand the frustration of dealing with religious people who are numb to the overtness of their beliefs. They don't notice how "in our face" they are and their religion is. But you may be doing things in your zeal or desperation to make that bold statement that is causing more friction than it needs to.

Remember, they don't have to respect your beliefs (or unbeliefs) any more than you must respect theirs. But respecting each other as people and family members is something that both sides should always strive for. That may mean, in your case, that you don't leave the table during prayer. The hand thing is a bit weird (to me), but I would avoid it for hygienic reasons above all. If they insist that you must complete their circle (like a séance?), then maybe you politely refuse or maybe you do it as a small compromise for family harmony. If they need the circle completed for their ritual, then perhaps you politely offer to move away from the table so that they may perform the ritual and contact the dead spirit, Jesus.

Just food for thought.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on April 5, 2010 at 3:27pm

Whatever makes your boat float. There is no way you can make everyone else happy, no matter what you do, somebody ain't gonna like it. Like Ricky Nelson said: Ya can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself!

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on April 5, 2010 at 5:44pm

Ya can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself!

Good advice on maintaining a healthy prostate, too.

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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on April 5, 2010 at 5:14pm

Are you being an asshole? Are you the one disparaging others for their convictions? Are you the one disrespecting the observances of people's beliefs?

Okay, I think I just accidentally implied that your family are assholes. I don't know your family or what the situation is like, so I'm not actually making any judgment or forming any opinions on them. All I'm saying is, it's a two-way street, and if it was my family, I'd be livid.

If someone offers to include me in prayer, I will politely decline when it conflicts with my convictions (almost always). If it's not someone I know that well and they press the issue, I will briefly and politely explain how it is against my convictions. If they decide not to respect this, I will either have it out right there, or I will exercise my right to leave.

Having convictions means putting up with shit from time to time to defend them. It's true for pretty much everyone, just to widely varying degrees. Really, it's a matter of how important this issue is to you, in practice and in principle, and weight that against the trouble any course of action will cause.

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Permalink Reply by M on April 5, 2010 at 8:31pm

I've never bowed my head in prayer when I don't believe it. It seems disrespectful to pretend. You could still hold hands. Holding hands is nice. When people pray, I like to recite that bit of poem from "Alice Through the Looking Glass": "'The time has come,' the Walrus said, 'to talk of many things. Of ships and shoes and sealing wax and cabbages and kings. And why the sea is boiling hot and whether pigs have wings.'" I love that poem and it makes just about as much sense as prayer to me. Gives me something entertaining to do with myself while they pray, and I look all quiet and respectful-like. There's always compromises that don't involve praying. I mean, it's not like they can FORCE you to pray. It takes belief, which I assume you are lacking. Gotta love families. :o)

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Permalink Reply by Prazzie on April 6, 2010 at 8:56pm

I love my family. I don't share their religious beliefs, but I know that they value them greatly. We only see each other during the Christmas holidays. Then we all sit around a big table, hold hands and someone prays. I hold their hands, bow my head and listen to the prayer. Then we get to the important stuff - food!

It would serve no purpose for me to upset my gran by making a scene or refusing to participate. She's a great-grandmother, she deserves peace in her old age. I do the same with my partner's family. His mother prays, we hold hands, she reads from the Bible before we get to open presents. I think of it as visiting foreigners with strange habits. I just go with the flow.

Now, if you're being asked to pray more often than a couple of times a year, then I can see where you're coming from. I wouldn't play with my phone while they prayed, though. Regardless of whether you're being an asshole - how much strife is this causing and do you think it's worth it? Personally, I don't care if no one else acknowledges my atheism, because I know what I know and that's enough for me. I've participated in some very strange religious rituals across multiple religions for the sake of being polite. I know it's just song and dance and has no effect on me, so I don't mind it. So how firm am I? Soft and squishy, but I get invited back.

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