Someone on YouTube said "How do you know that your logic is true? Also, how do you know that there is no God, based on that logic?"

I responded with "How do you know that your bible is true? Also, how do you know there is a god based on that bible?" not expecting a response back.

He responds by saying "What personally convinced me that the Bible is true is it's scientific and prophetic accuracy. For example, it predicted the exact day that Jesus would ride a donkey into Jerusalem, thousands of years in advance. It also predicted the establishment of the new Jewish state of Israel (to the year) thousands of years in advance. There are only two out of dozens that have been fulfilled, and to chaulk it up to coincidence would simply be denial. 

Aside from that, the Bible answers (almost) all of my questions concerning the world today, as well as my concerns about the afterlife. No other book on the planet has such information, but the problem is, people have been taught to believe that it's nothing but an outdated book of myths written by stupid ancient people, therefore they don't read it in it's proper context, which is historical narrative. Yes, it's scientifically as well as historically accurate but it's not a science book. You must have a mature perspective of science and history to understand it's proper context, as well as an open mind. As a former atheist (and extremely skeptical) I had to first open my mind to the possibility of my being wrong and the Bible being true before I could actually look at it for what it really is, the living word of God Himself. There's no other way to explain the information in that book."

I just said "Well as a former Christian who has read the Bible and studied it immensely in my 22 years on this planet, I still have to call bull." because the first example he gave about Jesus riding into Jerusalem is very circular (it is true because the Bible says it is) but the second example he gave about Israel is stumping me. I have heard that before and do not believe it to be true. A lot of things are predicted and fiction and then happen (or we can SAY that these events were predicted but really we're just connecting dots that aren't there).

Where is that verse anyway? I want to know exactly what it says so I can decide for myself what it may or may not predict.

Sorry this was so long.

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He just said " lol Based on what? Can you prove those prophecies to be incorrect? No, you can't... So I "call bull" on what you say until you can. These things have been proven. So for me to dismiss these facts, I need something better than the word of a lady named 'Carasaurus Wrex' on youtube. But you have a right to believe whatever you want. You asked me a question, I gave you an honest answer based on proven facts. Do what you want with it."

So I responded with "I cannot believe in the god of the Bible. I can't disprove god (nor can I disprove anything) but that is not reason enough to start believing in a malicious wrathful god. And the Bible is refuted by at least 93% of scientists according to a study from 2007. Prophecy can not be proven by science. I was a history major with a minor in psychology and sociology until my junior year of college and there are MANY other reputable explanations for what you call 'Biblical prophecy'

The Old Testament prophesied the New Testament in the same way Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone prophasizes Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. It is easy to add cohesive story to existing fiction.

What is the particular verse you are referring to about Israel? Because I bet that particular prophecy is merely a manipulation of ambiguous meaning, text and numbers. Many works of fiction also 'predicted the future' including Star Trek. Also, it is called a 'self fulfilling prophecy.' When things like this are predicted people consciously or unconsciously end up fulfilling them.

Believe what you want but if another religion said that they had prophecies predicting the future, would that be proof enough for you to convert?"

Hopefully he gets the point.

He didn't.

Is he really asking you to 'prove' the prophecies are incorrect, but still refusing to give you the specific prophecies? You say you already asked him about which specific verses he's referring to. If he's not giving you specifics that should speak pretty clearly on how confident he actually is in his information. He only can be proven right when he doesn't let anybody else check his work.

Have you ever read Slacktivist's take on the Left Behind series? I highly recommend it. Slacktivist is a progressive Christian who quite strongly disagrees with some modern interpretations of Revelation. Basically he lays out, in great detail, the hypocrisy of these authors. They say they are reading the Bible simply, literally, with no fancy interpretation. Then they'll cut one verse from Daniel, put it next to one other verse from Revelation, skip back to a chapter of Daniel, then splice in another bit from elsewhere that makes no sense to anyone at all unless you've decided to believe it all unquestioningly.

How do you argue with an intelligent Christian?

This is not an intelligent Christian.

He responds by saying "What personally convinced me that the Bible is true is it's scientific and prophetic accuracy. For example, it predicted the exact day that Jesus would ride a donkey into Jerusalem, thousands of years in advance. It also predicted the establishment of the new Jewish state of Israel (to the year) thousands of years in advance. There are only two out of dozens that have been fulfilled, and to chaulk it up to coincidence would simply be denial.

Note these are claims asserted without specifics and without evidence; which is not scientific. Claims asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

The Bible is the claim, not the evidence.

He just said " lol Based on what? Can you prove those prophecies to be incorrect? No, you can't...

That's a burden of proof fallacy, also known as an appeal to ignorance. It falls to the claimant to prove the claim is correct, not to the skeptic to prove the claim is incorrect.

I wrote this paragraph on January 1, 2013. I predict that a kangaroo man will die on July 26, 2013. Lo and behold, it shall come true. I also predict that a period will appear at the end of this sentence. Lo and behold, it came true.

How could I have known to put that exact hyperlink behind the text when the web page did not yet exist at the time I made the prophecy? How could I have known about the kangaroo man SEVEN MONTHS in advance? How could I have known about the period BEFORE I EVEN TYPED IT? To chalk that up to coincidence would simply be denial. Can you prove those prophecies to be incorrect? No, you can't...

I wrote this paragraph on January 1, 2013.

LOL, that's perfect.

I'm sure you couldn't share that paragraph that you wrote until today, though, right? That would have tarnished God's plan for having you reveal it now. God's timing is truly the best...

The bible was assembled about 1700 years ago, at the Council of Nicaea. Many of it's supposed predictions that where allegedly fulfilled where written after the event that they were supposed to predict, and most of those events are only found in the bible, not in any other historical record. This is not an intelligent person that you're arguing with, merely a good bullshitter.

The person to ask "where is that verse" would be the guy who asserted that the verse exists. When he produces it, you will probably find that you have to read it in the "proper context" in order for it to make sense. And the "proper context" is the one where you decide what EXACTLY Daniel meant by saying "seven sevens" or "a time, times and half a time".

I'm also not aware of any predictions that gave the day Jesus rode on the donkey, but I could be mistaken.

It's entirely possible, of course, that this Youtuber didn't really look up these verses; he just heard someone say that it was true and didn't really read it himself to see if the Bible said that or not.

I'm also not aware of any predictions that gave the day Jesus rode on the donkey, but I could be mistaken.

Clearly it wouldn't matter, even if:

  • the prediction was in such plain language that it admitted of no other interpretation than that specific date, and
  • We actually could pin down with precision the date that the story states Jesus took the ride.  It doesn't come with date markers in it like "March 13, 29" or even something like Roman dating, which we could readily convert, or anything remotely like that.  (The two places where the new testament is even vaguely specific as to year are in the nativity tale, and contradict each other badly.)

If both of those were true, we could say, "yeah, that paragraph actually said this and it happened."

But you know if I were alive back then and wanted people to think I was the messiah, you can bet I'd go to Hertz or Avis rent-a-donkey if I had to, to make sure it happened on that day, and refuse any offered upgrades to Arabian stallion. 

So even IF there was an unambiguous prophecy and even IF we could incontrovertibly show that the story depicts it happening on that actual day, and even IF we were to believe that this particular bit of the story were non fiction (and it fails on all three of those counts, though it only has to fail on one of them), it wouldn't prove anything other than that Jesus had read the prophecy.

I do not think this is an intelligent person. Firstly they are not aware that most of the writers of the bible, esp the new testament are fake using names of known persons, and that during the times of the jesus myth, there were secular writers and none of the secular writers even contibute a sentence to the events of the new testament. As mentioned by H3xx, the compiler of the bible as it is known was a person who belived in many gods and an emperor of Rome, who maybe had his own political agendas for calling the Council. A religous person accorded an intelligence status, that is Bull!

 "How do you know that your logic is true?

Because it is based on reason and evidence. The same empirical process makes medicine work and computers compute.

Also, how do you know that there is no God, based on that logic?"

I don't. In the same way I don't know there is a society of goblins living under my bed. I've checked though... no sign!

The bible is the work of deranged minds, It was mashed together ineptly, many years after the alleged facts - a hodgepodge of contradiction and absurdities. Does this guy think that because some donkey prophecy came true (which even if it did it was coincidence) it proves Jesus was the creator of the universe? lol

 

I won't go so far as to say this person is unintelligent.  But they clearly lack critical thinking skills (unskilled with that tool in their head), or they have them and won't exercise them here (if so, dishonest or lazy).

  1. Invite your intelligent friend to explain why John says the crucifixion occurred on the day before Passover, while the other three gospels happened on the first day of Passover.
  2. Invite your intelligent friend to put together a chronological recounting of what happened on Easter, but with the stipulation that they leave out no event described in any of the gospels.  He doesn't  have to prove it, just "harmonize" the gospels' story of what happened on Easter.  This would mean taking every single event chronicled in Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24 and John 20-21.  Plus Acts 1:3-12 and I Corinthians 15:3-8. The gospels don't always give precise times of day, so your friend is free to make some educated guesses.  It doesn't have to be perfect but it has to present one plausible account, that includes all of the detail that actually is given.  If he has to fill anything in he is free to do so in parentheses (so you know it's his interpolation).  But again not one single detail that actually IS given, can be left out. This should be pretty easy given the bible's inerrancy, right? [Note:  I quite happily give Dan Barker of FFRF credit for coming up with this one.]

Well WTF, I had a nice long essay there this morning and it seems to have disappeared.

I don't have the energy or inclination to try to re-create it.

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