I often want to ask Christians (or any theists for that matter) whether they believe things are right and wrong inherently, or because they are commanded by God.  Why does that matter?  Well, if the former is true then we can figure out what is right and wrong and decide what is best without relying on God.  If the latter is true, we must rely on God to help us figure it out -- and that is extremely problematic with Christianity.  Here's why:  


First, let's look at some of the key properties of God, according to the bible: 

1. God exists.

2. God communicates with some humans at certain points in time, in different forms such as a burning bush (Exo 3:1) or an angel (Judge 6:11).

3. God has asked specific people to break the primary rules he provided man (Exo 20 and Deu 5), like telling Abraham to kill his own son (Gen 22:2) and giving Moses authority to command the Levites to murder thousands of their brothers friends and neighbors (Exo 32:26-29).


But Satan has very similar attributes:

1. Satan also exists. (Rev 12:9)

2. Satan can also communicate with some humans at certain points in time, in different forms such as a snake (Gen 3:4) or an angel (Corin 11:14).

3. Satan has also asked men to break God's rules (Gen 3).  He's also quite tricky and can tempt even the most righteous (Matt 4:1).


So how would a Christian be able to tell the difference between God and Satan? Couldn't Satan come to a righteous Christian and claim to be an angel (which he is, according to many interpretations of the Bible) in order to make that person do something horrible, such as commanding the rape of women and murder of infants?  And why would that Christian believe that such a thing was actually terrible, since it has been condoned by God (e.g. Isaiah 13:16)? 



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if the Christians believe god is responcible for everything, i mean good and bad in the world, would that not make him satan also? or is there god just a horrible god?

Everything is too big of a word, I think.

God did not create evil. Satan himself was an angel. He only became Satan when he did actions that condemned him to live forever in Hell (him not repenting being one of them), severing his connection to goodness for all eternity.

God is responsible for evil only insofar he still allows Satan, by some hidden or public judgment, to inflict evil for whatever reason it might be (passing out judgment, acquirement of virtue, etc.)

I... think that is a partial answer. I'd say more, but I don't have the words for it at the moment and bad communication is a big no no.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."  Isaiah 45:7

"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" Amos 3:6

Yes yes... but any good linguist and the ability of languages would be able to tell you that that doesn't falsify what I say at all.

Actually, that's what I wanted to talk about. That which I wanted to talk about but I couldn't... put in words.

In layman's terms, yes, he does make evils - but the evils of afflictions and punishments.

I don't think that there be a single person alive who looking at the events of the Apocalypse would deny they are evils. There is, however, a difference between evil that is used to describe inherent nature and evil in terms of something that is just... bad - like a good earthquake.

I'm going to give this a quick swing and hope I make at least some sort of sense. If not... well research it yourselves. Maybe in the Summa.

Consider a paradox with the definition of two seemingly contradicting ideas that express a higher truth. One can naturally say that God, in Christian theology, is but perfect and all-powerful... but is in itself self contradictory terms. If one is perfect, that leaves a being powerless.

Just as so... Ah! Forget it.

I'll leave this link. I don't know if it's an all-round good site, but it explains this matter in a well enough way.



"One can naturally say that God, in Christian theology, is but perfect and all-powerful... but is in itself self contradictory terms. If one is perfect, that leaves a being powerless."

So your god is not all-powerful, not perfect, or powerless?


Here is the conclusion of the article you posted.

God is not the author of evil.8 However, God does reward and punish on the basis of good and bad behavior. Therefore, God does bring judgment and calamity (either directly or through human authorities) on those who rebel.9 God will ultimately judge all people, since rebels will not be allowed in the new, perfect creation.

Question? your god could have made a perfect creation but it was his first try and he screwed things up?  or are we to believe that god says he created evil but he wasn't able to make it clear in a divine revelation that everyone could understand cause he really didn't create evil,was  just talking smack to make an obtuse point?




For Him, perfection in love can only be through will. He has no desire of loving beings who do not willfully love him.

His creation was perfect. The garden was perfect.

Nevertheless, evil came upon the world by human choice. They were given clear guidelines and the world was perfect.

We refused... for we willfully chose what was not His.

The story goes Adam and Eve didn't know good and evil and it was when they eat of the fruit they learned it. Where is the willfulness in that?

If the garden was perfect then the need for the test was God's insecurity? He didn't know the outcome of the test?

You are simply regurgitating dogma?

They knew their duties.

The effect of the tree was, yes, know good and evil in a more profound way - but it was through the weakness that would come through original sin. They still knew right from wrong before the fall.

Honestly, if sin is a sort of disobedience and you see God telling you not to disobey and follow orders and you disobey knowing out of some desire to be equal to Him in some way or another... that's a sin - and a willful one at that.

They knew their orders, yet they chose to disobey out of the sinful love they had to become equal to God.

His creation was perfect. The garden was perfect.


They knew their orders, yet they chose to disobey out of the sinful love they had to become equal to God.


This is a discussion all its own, but I'll bite...


I might bring us back to the parent analogy, since it seems particularly applicable here.  What father, in his right mind, would turn a stove on and leave the room while his toddler was in the kitchen unattended?  "Honey, don't touch that while I'm gone."  That would be a terrible parent by any stretch of the imagination. 

But we don't even have a normal human father in this story of creation. This is ostensibly a being who knows everything, including the fact that his daughter would definitely eat from the tree.  If he didn't know that, then he's not omniscient.  If he did know that, he's a totally irresponsible father.


Also, what kind of deadbeat dad punishes all of his children for the behavior of one (that he knew was going to misbehave).


To expand on the analogy, that would be as if a man had many children, told only a couple of them not to touch the stove that he had turned on, and then left his curious toddler in the kitchen with no real understanding of what the instructions really meant.  Sitting in his office, watching on his web-cam, he sees her finally succumb to the curiosity and touch the stove, at which point he proceeds to beat all of his children with a belt!  "Sorry kids, you all have to learn from Eve's mistake!" 


But he doesn't stop there!  He goes on to explain that he really beat them because he loved them.  And then he also scares them into believing that if they tried to find better parents, he would let the bad man next door torture them -- forever! 


That doesn't really sound like father of the year to me.


The story states that they did not know the differences between right and wrong or this another spot where the divine revelation doesn't mean what it says?

As a matter of fact they felt the need to put clothes that they weren't wearing before they knew anything about right or wrong, good or evil.


The devil has red skin, long black fingernails, wears a red body suit, has a tail, and has horns on his head. I even saw him. On Saturday Night Live.

@ Phil Tibbs and his argument:

The bad reasoning with that is that you're assuming Adam and Eve are likened to children.

Yes, we are the "children of God", insofar we are his creation, his adopted children, etc - but that doesn't mean we have the right to plead ignorance of children when we obviously don't.

And He is omniscient, but... the act should be more likened to a husband and his wife. Would a man, married to her wife, never trust her to be in the sight of any man lest she become an adulteress? (Yes, we do have the punishment thing which isn't really in the husband's position, but I hope you can catch what I'm trying to say). Wouldn't the love of the wife only be proved and shown more pure upon her loyalty amidst temptations? What man can truly say he has a loving wife, but more of a robot, when she is forced to be loyal?

The point is... who would ever believe a love towards a person or an object is strong at all unless there wasn't an alternate good that could entice us to love it as well?

God doesn't want to remove our free wills - I said it before. Who would be pleased with the love of a robot whom you command under mere "puppetry"?

And as I already said - we are fully capable of doing things willfully and there is such a thing as justice. (That idea is more complicated, like I said in the post about evil in the bible, but I'll leave it at that)

The last thing is... original sin doesn't lead to Hell, it's actual sin.

Yes, you were pushed from the garden, but that doesn't condemn you to Hell (since you repented, assuming) or your children. What it does is make you weak.

The people before the time of Jesus didn't exactly go to Hell... necessarily. It did, however, give them the obligation to overcome their weakened bodies and do good - even in the face of weakness.

And from what I take from the last paragraph... from what I have said before, God dislikes other gods for there are no gods beside Him. Usually, the other "parents" are just the adoration of an idea - like almost all mythologies. They represent war, sex, pleasure, law... but these are created things - not their creator.

Anyways, I'm getting sleepy (and for that matter, sorry if I was sloppy explaining myself) and I need to do some homework assignments. I might not be able to answer very speedily.



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