Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kairan Nierde on October 18, 2011 at 1:42am

ahhhh, deviance, such a useful word...statistical deviance...moral deviance...?  We are often labled deviants. degenerates, abominations, freaks, mistakes.  As you compare our orientation to bestiality and pedophilia, just which meaning you're using becomes less and less clear. 

Perhaps I am missing something, but it seems quite clear to me when you consider the issue from the point of consent, why society ought to accept some minority orientations over other predelictions::  can an animal truly consent to bestiality?  does a child ever consent to pedophilia?  are not the majority of same sex partnerships between consenting adults and when not, how is this rape morally different from heterosexual rape (which, although quite prevalent, does not call into question the validity of heterosexuality)?

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on October 18, 2011 at 2:45am

We don't bestow the requirement of "consent" on animals to be pets, for example. A dog or cat might prefer to be out playing in the outdoors, exposed to traffic and other hazards. We don't ask them if they want to wear a collar. We don't ask them if they want to be groomed.

Attitudes toward animals aren't written in the sky BY GOD. There are no "animal rights" given to us by an all-knowing deity who loves and cares about animals.

We even pretend there is an objective basis for human rights, when in fact they are just what we believe or want now, while in another time and place and time we'd be reciting a totally different script.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on October 18, 2011 at 2:32am

Kasu, WHAT IF the traditional two-parent heterosexual family were actually the best family form for bringing up children? One needn't hate homosexuals or even want to prevent homosexual sex or pair-bonding to maintain that the traditional intact hetero family is nevertheless the one that most often works best for children vs all the alternatives, including single-parent families, "communal" families, and father/father, mother/mother families. A very famous Atlantic Monthly article asks some very tough questions about "alt" family styles: Dan Quayle Was Right.

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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on October 18, 2011 at 2:49am

Kasu, WHAT IF the traditional two-parent heterosexual family were actually the best family form for bringing up children?

 

There's too many factors involved in child-rearing for that single factor to ever be taken seriously absent some strong and credible evidence.

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on October 18, 2011 at 10:07pm

Read the article. There IS evidence. She set out assuming that the form of the family meant little and that good intentions could overcome everything, only to discover that she was wrong. By every measurable dimension (health, psychological adjustment, educational attainment), kids from "normal" hetero families did better in the stats.

Of course, you can argue that statistics aren't destiny, but is it right to bet a child that you can beat the odds?

Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on October 18, 2011 at 10:27pm

I read the article.  May statement remains the same.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on October 18, 2011 at 10:08pm

But family structure determines or at least influences those "other factors." It's part of the modern script most of us have learned the love conquers all, but maybe we're wrong.

Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on October 18, 2011 at 2:08pm

In "Dan Quail Was Right" there's at least an order of magnitude more speculation and anecdote than relevant social science data. It's a very long rant with predetermined conclusions.

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on October 18, 2011 at 10:09pm

Umm, no. She offers evidence and it's very un-rantish. If you found it a rant, your threshold for rantishness is set extremely low.

Permalink Reply by Galen on October 18, 2011 at 10:23pm

Just an aside here, I really hate when people call the modern "nuclear family" a "traditional family." It isn't. The current form of "family" has existed for not even 2 centuries. For the vast majority of human civilization, children were NOT raised by a mother and father and did not even remain with any "family" much past puberty. Our "traditional family" is a relatively new invention and its current form is mostly the result of the industrial revolution.

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on October 18, 2011 at 10:26pm

Hate it if you must, but that isn't proof that it isn't the best family form for our period in history.

Permalink Reply by T A A on December 27, 2011 at 4:01am

@kasu... I sympathese with both yours and unseen's point view. I agree that the historical anthropology and evolution of the human genome simply has not prepared humans for 'nuclear families', our biology is simply not evolved that way. Nuclear families may be the mathematical 'norm', but they are not healthy, they're an artificial concoction.

However, I have become of the mind in recent years that the human race is entirely too obsessed with improving the human condition. This obsession plays to those in power, not to the masses, and it causes and endless cycle of more and more and more and more humans, and endless cycle of non-viable growth. Thereby sanctioning of a weak human race in constant need of psychological and medical maintenance and supervision, incapable of fending for ourselves, cubicle bound apes. Cubicles are not healthy for any ape, we are no different.

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