As Non-Theists, what does the Fourth of July mean to us?

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Bro, the Mexican natives of the Spaniards massacred Native Americans - annihilated them. I'm sure many of them mixed up with the population - but let's not pretend that those governing "Mexico" were innocent parties. Every nation has a nasty history - nitpicking on the U.S. without looking at all the good it has done around the world in humanitarian efforts along with being a symbol and beacon for hope and freedom around the world is quite simple minded of one.

Well Bro, "the Mexican natives of the Spaniards massacred Native Americans - annihilated them." What?

You understand that the SW and Calif were part of the area that  Mexican natives inhabited before the Spaniards or the US showed up.

10% of Mexico's population is white or Spanish, 49% mix of Spanish and native American (Mexico is part of the Americas) the rest of the population native.

Yes Sthere is a Spanish influence but Spain was kick out about 1829 or so.

You do enjoy some views that some would call bigotry.

Not at all  - I am in class right now so I will respond later on tonight. But the facts remain - every nation has a dirty history - one can not judge a nation based on history or else there would be no country remaining on the Earth to say a good thing about.

Sassan - this freedom drum the US beats so regularly is only accessable by a limited few dependant on race, gender, sexuality, country and culture of origin and financial capacity.  Even religion.


No, I do not buy this line you re selling.

As I would not say good things about german history, 1933-1945, I can't say good things about U.S. history 1845 to present.  Empire building is a nasty business, requiring the murders of many innocents.


I love my country as I would love an alcoholic mother, but I ain't buyin' her gin.

Sure - for me it means very little either.  Nationalism is usually pretty ugly (as we can see on this thread).  It is always ignorant, reinvents it's history, distorts, lies and presents false equivalence in its defence.

The horrible sentiments poured out under the banner of 'land of the free and home of the brave' were quite obnoxious.

So - no: not a huge fan of the 4th of July.  Not massively anti either: every country does this stuff.  But it's generally not that pretty and I think national pride is about as rational as sporting pride (ie pride in your local team).  It's never worked for me - and I've never been patriotic.  i'll be a human being, living on the 'pale blue dot' in a remote end of a remote galaxy.  And of that I am in profound awe.

Well to me 4th July is the day after the 3rd July and before the 5th July - what is the big deal ?


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