God gives us free will because He chooses to have a relationship with us. If you deny is that is your choice?

1)  God gives us free will because He chooses to have a relationship with us.

2)  However, if you choose to reject his invitation then you are exercising your freedom to choose,

3)  BUT the Bible explains to us where that rejection originated and also its consequences. People frequently use the "why would a good God allow x,y,z..." to paint God as some sort of sadistic monster, and it is perfectly understandable to have such a reaction to pain and suffering.

4)  God hates it too. But when mankind deliberately choose to go their own way and abandon his Law, his morality, his ethics, and his value of every human being, in favour of relativistic elastic morality which robs human life of its value and dignity, God cannot interfere, because he values our liberty as individuals.

5)  The remedy to human selfishness, greed, corruption and immorality has been declared in His word and is available to ANYONE who decides to jump off the worldly bandwagon and turn to Jesus, who redeems mankind, restores our relationship with our Creator, and enables us to live according to HIS will and not our own, which is desperately flawed and corrupt.

6)  Tragedies happen all the time, both natural disasters and those perpetrated by human beings. Both are the result of man's original sin. Adam had been given a mandate by God to steward the earth and all in it, but when he abrogated that responsibility he handed the earth over to Satan on a plate. This had far reaching consequences both for the natural world and for humanity itself.

7)  Natural disasters, diseases, wars and man made religions that leave out on the one true God in favour of gods made in man's own image...not to mention the sense of alienation and inner loneliness, the lie of insignificance, the pride and greed and corruption of worldly politics AND religion.

8)  That is why Jesus said the whole world was under the power of the evil one, but to fear not, because he had overcome it.

9)  He could say this because, being God, he is beyond the restrictions of time, and because God had always had this redemptive plan in place. When the Lord's Prayer has the words "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as in heaven" it is a prayer that every Christian prays, that their own lives will reflect God's kingdom values and spread that kingdom wherever we are.

10)  What are God's kingdom values? Matthew chapter 5 shows that God's order is very different from the way things are run for much of the time.

11)  It is NOT the survival of the fittest as humanity views "fitness" but only those who are born of the Spirit, who receive Christ as Lord and Saviour, that are made fit for his kingdom.

12)  John chapter 3 verse 16-18 again reminds us that this invitation is for WHOEVER will receive him. That is the start of our restoration to God's image. That is the start of rescuing this world from sinking ever deeper into a moral cesspool.

Come on see what you have?? Bet ya you will see this and back down.

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Before we start can you please provide some evidence that your particular god actually exists. We do not believe your god exists. There are over 1 billion Muslims that would disagree with you. Have you ever asked them what they think about Jesus? There are over 1 billion Hindus that do not believe in Jesus. Have you asked them? Do you tell Muslims and Hindus that they are wrong and that they should have used their “freewill” to choose your god instead?

Why have you not used your “freewill” to choose Brahma? Maybe it is because you do not believe in the existence of Brahma? If not you are an atheist towards the Hindu gods, just like I am.

Quoting the Bible does not prove the Bible. If it is not all just in your head and you have something more that Faith then please share it with us. If you can offer me something to show me that you are not just pretending that your god is real, then I will use my freewill to accept it.

Please do not quote the Bible to make your points.

Come on let’s see what you have. Bet you have nothing, only your own subjective belief.


What does 'back down' mean to you? I have nothing from which to back down. Your line of reasoning does not convince me of anything except that you are a believer. You'll have to do better to change my mind, anyway. You'll have to produce an actual god i think.

This owl has a small fragment of brain lodged in his skull 

On the face of it, this is plausible and coherent (if you accept the existence of God).  But I think it contains some flaws. 

"Adam had been given a mandate by God to steward the earth and all in it, but when he abrogated that responsibility he handed the earth over to Satan on a plate.

What did Adam do wrong exactly?  Eve ate an apple, when she had been told not to?  So what?  It was the fruit of the tree of knowledge or something, I don't understand this story properly, and I have never seen a good explanation of it.  What's wrong with knowledge?  What does this story mean?  What was so frigging terrible about eating one apple off a tree, that should condemn humankind to misery forever?  This is not just. 

"It is NOT the survival of the fittest as humanity views "fitness"

- it's not the survival of the fittest, no.  It's the survival of the fit.  Humans need each other to survive - if we were fighting all the time, or at least, not cooperating all the time like we do, then we could not have reached no.1 species on the planet.  We would have died out actually, on the savannah, after we were forced to come down from the trees. 

Evolution pushes all living things to favour and seek thriving, each in its own way.  Circumstances force human beings to seek each other's thriving too. 

There are these two expressions, which I think are an accurate representation of reality:

Hamilton's Rule:  (for genetically related people)

r × B > C

“I will help you when the amount by which it benefits the genes we share is greater than the cost I incur in helping you”.  

B = your benefit

r =  the proportion of genes that we share

>    is greater than

C = my cost

The (similar) Stakeholder Principle, for people who are interdependent: 

s × B > C

“I will help you when the benefit I gain from your well being is greater than the cost I incur in helping you.”

B = your well being

s = my stake in your well being (the good effect that you have on me)

>    is greater than

C = my cost

These two situations ensure that people need to help each other for the sake of their own genetic fitness. 

There is this definition of goodness, which we are free to follow or not: 

The first represents goodness (considering each person affected by your actions) and the second represents pure selfishness (only considering yourself).  Most of the time, we fall somewhere in between.  This ("perfect compassion") is embedded within this wider moral and ethical landscape: 

and taking into account living in small and large groups: 

The Healing Principle is my name for the evolutionary pressure to thrive, and "sanctity/purity" is the "disgust" element of morality.  This should be linked to cooperation, I see from last week's article in Sunday School, and I will amend the diagram when I can. 

I'm not sure what it all means, but as a response to this post your visuals are fantastic!

Thanks.  In the first one, the pink dot is "you" and the pink line represents whom you care about when you act and the action affects other people (the black dots).  If you care about everyone whom your action affects, that's "perfect compassion".  If you only care about yourself (second diagram) then that's perfect selfishness.  It's your ego that does the caring (both for oneself and others). 

This idea is based on someone I really know.  He always aims to give the maximum benefit and minimum harm to everyone whom his actions affect.  So I formalised it into a mathematical-type codification, which sits brilliantly as the "beating heart" of ethics. 

Diagrams 3 and 4 aim to show the most important elements of the moral landscape and what is related to what.  3 is really "personal morality" and 4 is "group morality". 

Surely there is not much here that a Christian, who understands and accepts the theory of evolution, would disagree with. 

There is an excellent movie I've just seen which illustrates the interdependence of people living on the savannah:  A Good Lie (starring Reese Witherspoon).  Anyone who's not bawling their eyes out by the end has a heart of stone. 

Right off that bat you make an unproven scientific claim about freewill; you can spend the rest of your life studying that alone. Everything else in your "know it all post" is bible based and is immediately rejected as circular reasoning. Suggest you study the historical origins of your already failed cult and then decide if you still want to preach such disgusting nonsense such as:

Matthew 10:34-37:

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.  He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.”

And in Luke 14:26:

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.”

Your argument makes no sense and has no foundations.

You start with the supposition that there is a god, and, that he "gave us" free will "Because he wanted a relationship with us".

Even that is nonsensical.

I have a relationship with my wife and children, and, coworkers, and even guys at the local gas station, etc.  I did not have to give them anything to have those relationships.  People can choose to have, or, to not have relationships.

It has nothing to do with someone or something granting them the ability...simply being able to think allows one to choose among options.

IE: If "god chose to have a relationship"...did someone "Grant him free will?"


Next, you say if you "choose to reject his invitation"you are exercising your right to choose....but, what invitation?  I have never received an invitation from a god to have a relationship.  If I had, I might THEN exercise my ability (Not a right, an ability) to chose.

#3 says the bible explains the rejection, but, in reality, the bible describes dumb naked immortal people who can't know right from wrong w/o doing something wrong...a TRAP.

Further, it explains that a supernatural entity created by god, tricked the poor dumb naked people into doing wrong, which was easy, as they did not know right from wrong yet...by design.

So, there was no rejection of an invitation to have a relationship...the relationship was already established in the creation myth...god made a dumb naked immortal Adam, then made him a woman after some discussion, etc.

Being tricked is not a rejection.


#4 "god hates it too"...um, so, you know the mind of god?  Cool.

And, again, it was a trick, not a deliberate decision to do wrong...being tricked into something is not a deliberate act.

As for morality, there is NOTHING in the bible, as far as morals, that did not exist previously, so, obviously, it either came from OTHER GODS, or, from people...the most logical source given that the morals are set in a bronze age reference, including acceptance of slavery.

Slavery is not moral, but, it is in the bible...so, the bible is not a source of morality, but an excuse to be immoral in the name of mythological entities.

#5 - more assumptions with zero evidence to back it up.

#6 More unsubstantiated claims, including now adding another immortal entity, Satan....and that being tricked, again, means something deliberate.

#7 Um, Christianity says man was made in god's image....same thing...you're way off base on this one too.

#8#9 If Jesus overcame it, why is there still evil?  If its free will, the usual tripe, then, what was "overcome"?

More unsubstantiated claims with zero evidence.

# 10 what are mighty mouses values, the comics say that they are different than in the cartoons.

#11 Survival of the fittest is a biological, not a moral, concept...and, comparing apples and oranges is not meaningful or relevant

#12, Again, no invitations were received, and, there is no evidence of them being sent either.  And, the world is MORE moral than it was back when the bibles were written, or describing.

Slavery for example is at least illegal, there are fewer wars, people are living longer healthier lives, especially in countries with the lowest religious concentrations, and laws based upon legal principles and not the bible...

So, you have said absolutely NOTHING with any real meaning, have not backed up, supported or provided a factual basis for ANY of your claims, and, your erroneous conclusions, based upon your erroneous propositions, are not surprising, as, garbage in/garbage out.

All you have accomplished is firmly confirming that Christianity is the most arrogant major religion in the US...if you personally represent it.





that my ersatz friends is ripping a new asshole but i doubt the owl will appreciate that he has been disemboweled...




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