This discussion stems from this post, which was about something else entirely. But, I thought a good discussion could be had without hijacking the blog.

So to catch you up, here is the start of it that is on the comments of the blog post:

Lyonel Nichols
...Just like the global warming scares. You guys heard about the leak to the internet about the IPCC trying to cover up the fact that they faked data?

Reggie
This?

Lyonel Nichols
I was actually referring to this. However, I did find your link interesting. However, your link only refutes a few minor claims that the CBSNews link I posted claims. This document from congress always had my suspicions up, too...

So now we are all caught up!

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Interesting points. I read a book (I know, dangerous, isn't it) by a geologist named Chris Turney called Ice, Mud, and Blood. It was mostly an exploration of past climates and the varying methods they used to derive their conclusions about them. The biggest thing it showed me was that based on the geological evidence, past climate changes have been nothing like what we are seeing now. And even without temperature data, we can see the effects of warming by watching the migration of flora and fauna into regions they never had inhabited before.

So we have this collusion of scientific fields that point to a single consensus, it seems, even if we haven't the fine details worked out yet. Or am I missing something?
From the CBS link:

On one hand, over at RealClimate.org, Gavin Schmidt, a modeler for the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, has been downplaying the leak. Schmidt wrote: "There is no evidence of any worldwide conspiracy, no mention of George Soros nefariously funding climate research ... no admission that global warming is a hoax, no evidence of the falsifying of data, and no 'marching orders' from our socialist/communist/vegetarian overlords."

I found that amusing because that is my sentiment about it. Even if one station was reporting faulty data, that would not effect the mountains of evidence that has changed the minds of even ardent skeptics. Those skeptics still deny that the change is anthropogenic, but they accept that the change is a real phenomena.

The list of 700 scientists carries little weight with me. It reminds me of the list of scientists that deny evolution. I scrolled through the names a little and picked out half a dozen at random. None were climatologists. They were chemists, engineers, physicists, geographers, and such. It is very similar to the scientists who signed on in dissent from evolution; almost none were biologists. In fact, many were engineers, much like this list.

It was one giant argument from authority that bears very little authority in the specific field that it supposedly refutes. Yet the document states that the dissenting scientists overwhelm the hype machine scientists.

The over 700 dissenting scientists are more than 13 times the number of UN scientists (52) who authored the media-hyped IPCC 2007 Summary for Policymakers.

Take into account the number of scientific bodies and organizations that support the IPCC... on climate change, and we have either a massive, scientific conspiracy or some small, wrongheaded agenda that roped in some chemists and engineers. As they have shown with evolution, they are willing to sign almost anything. It is then hyped as major scientific dissent.

These emails well may be taken out of context. It has happened before. Watch the video to see how "deniers", as I guess we can call them for brevity, took a strong statement contrary to their position and changed it to suit their message. And the show they made of this has a certain, familiar ring to it.





Of course, I do enjoy these discussions, especially since I am not a climatologists myself and it forces me to learn new things.
There's a documentary called "Global Warming: the great swindle", which claims that the phenomena is not man made- but has to do with the sun, warming and cooling the earth in cycles over many years.

I don't know if it's true or not. frankly- i don't care.

even if man is not responsible for global warming- we're still killing ourselves with deforestation, over fishing, inefficient use of dwindling fresh water sources, driving countless species to extinction and thus destroying the food chain, pollution and over-population.

global warming might or might not be a side effect of all this, but solving these problems is imperative with or without global warming.
Yeah, I have not seen this documentary, but I have heard of it. It seems well handled in this video. And I'm sorry to throw another video on here. But, this channel does a great job of dealing with a lot of claims about global warming. As near as I can tell, the information is well researched and accurate.


Regarding a solar cause for increased warming trends, the Bad Astronomer had this to say.

I also see cherry-picking, with no mention of the other planets and moons in the solar system. And what of the Sun? Is it possible that the Earth’s warming is caused by our nearest star?
Of course it’s possible. There are links to the Sun’s behavior and Earth’s climate (look up the Maunder minimum for some interesting reading), and it would be foolish to simply deny this. However, this is a vastly complex and difficult system to understand, and simply claiming "Yes it’s due to the Sun" or "No it’s not due to the Sun" is certainly naive.

But you make a better, overall point. It is not that the planet will get warmer that we need to worry. It is the sudden change in our environments that need to worry us. We are not separate from this planet. We are a part of it, and destroying our biodiversity and the ecosystems we have come to rely on and exploit is the grandest folly we can commit, akin to shooting ourselves in the foot. It won't kill us, maybe, but it certainly will hobble us as a species.
even if man is not responsible for global warming- we're still killing ourselves with deforestation, over fishing, inefficient use of dwindling fresh water sources, driving countless species to extinction and thus destroying the food chain, pollution and over-population.

global warming might or might not be a side effect of all this, but solving these problems is imperative with or without global warming.
Well said Yonny. I have a lot of family who thinks global warming is a scam or conspiracy. Your points here are essentially what I try to put forward whenever the topic comes up.

Not everyone needs to buy-in or believe global warming; but people really need to stop ignoring these other facts. Things that we could work on; and things that could be related to global warming.
I have a friend who insists that the Earth' climate is a like a complicated, se4lf-correcting machine that will readjust itself to the designated climate/temperature, and anything that humans do to it will be corrected for.

Even neglecting the fact that Earth's climate has not always been as as it is now (Ice ages, anyone?), I have to wonder how he accounts for the flurocarbons that were damaging our ozone layer? Those were certainly man-made.

It all stems from his belief in God, of course.
Enjoy :]

1. Climate Change -- the scientific debate

2. Climate Change -- the objections

3 - Climate Change -- Anatomy of a myth

4 - Climate Change -- Gore vs. Durkin

5. Climate Change -- isn't it natural?
well I have spent longer on this post than any other, what have I learned, well I am going to go on the available evidence and add a dash of common sense. I look forward to reading more on this.



A wee voice is telling me that canabis smoke is good for the planet and I should continue in my own way to save the planet.

dont talk man, puff
Hahaha!
You know.. I can't claim to be an expert on global warming, Earth cycles or nature vs. man-made greenhouse emissions.
Hell, I don't even plan on having kids, so the future of the world after I die isn't even a genetic concern for me.
However... I don't want to live through an ice age, be it naturally occurring or made by nuke use.
So it would be pretty crappy of me to contribute to that happening, one way or another.
I am none too pleased about inheriting the earth in the present condition, let alone what looks to be it's future condition.
It doesn't take scientific research or tons of data to know that it is pretty dicked to pollute.
The problem is the population. The only way to reduce all the environmental effects is to reduce the population.
The Zombie Apocalypse will take care of that.

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