I am an atheist/ agnostic but after careful thinking, I've decided that perhaps virulently promoting atheism (as this community is doing) isn't really good for society. Please don't get offended, just read my arguments below calmly and rationally. If you can argue that I am wrong, I will listen to those arguments and change my opinion.
Note 1: I am using science in all my arguments, not religion.Not all my links point to scientific studies, but I'm sure you could find relevant evolutionary psychology papers if you googled for it.
Note 2: Please don't take offense, I'm not a sexist or a misogynist. I am trying hard to be as unemotional as possible in my arguments.
Argument 1: Polygamy is bad for society
What percentage of our (pre-civilizational/ barbaric) ancestors are males? The answer is not 50%. As evolutionary psychology points out, 80% of our female ancestors managed to reproduce but only 40% of our male ancestors did so. (Link: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm). Simply put, in barbaric societies, males were the high-risk high-reward sex whereas females were the low-risk low-reward sex.
Males are genetically polygynous (interested in sex with as many women as possible - this makes sense as men can produce millions of sperm every day and have a low reproductive cost)
Females are naturally hypergamous (interested in only one man but the best; the top 'alpha' man - this makes sense as a female produces one egg per month and has a high reproductive cost due to pregnancy and child birth).
When sexuality is uncontrolled, the combination of male polygyny and female hypergamy results in polygamy a.k.a harems (one man having sex & children with multiple women).
The ones who suffer are the beta males - the ones who have been sexually selected out. They typically become violent and don't contribute to society. There is an argument to be made that the Taliban practices polygamy and this is the source of violent behavior of terrorists from that part of the world. (Link: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/ten-politically-inco...)
When promiscuity is controlled through strictly enforced monogamy, every man gets a wife. This reduces violent behavior and unlocks the productive capacity in males. I don't have the link available but a man who is already married or believes that he will marry in the future will be 4x productive as an unmarried man who does not believe that he will ever marry (e.g.) Japanese grass-eaters ostracized by an increasingly promiscuous Japan (Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/27/japan-grass-eaters-sala...)
Alpha men don't significantly contribute to society - they are not scientific geniuses or hard workers. They are typically physically aggressive men. Contrary to feminist dogma, physically dominant men (even dominant to the point of abusive) are attractive to women because they exhibit alpha tendencies - The Dark Triad of Narcissism, Machiavellianism and Psychopathy.
Alpha men understand their higher attractiveness (compared to betas) and adopt a pump-and-dump sexual attitude. They have many sexual partners but don't bother helping with raising their young; some of their young will die due to lack of resources but they make up for it in numbers.
Betas adopt a nourish-and-protect sexual attitude. They have only one sexual partner, whom they win by proving their love and commitment. Then they have children with only this partner, but provide resources and protection to ensure their children grow up successfully.
Monogamy is the cornerstone of civilization. See the Moralia versus Libertalia argument (Link: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/10/14/relationshipstrategies/how...). In a monogamous society, with greater male economic participation and lesser violence, prosperity, rule of law and art flourish.
Argument 2: Promiscuity naturally leads to beta ostracism and harms society
Promiscuity - Defn: Any form of sex outside of monogamous marriage (including exclusive relationships)
Non-exclusive relationships (polyamorous relationships) are almost always polygamous (one alpha man with many women). This results in many beta men losing out.
Exclusive relationships also result in beta men losing out - Why? If enough alpha men are not available, hypergamous females would rather not enter into any relationship at all rather than be with beta men - "The Where have all the good men gone?" tirade from many women in modern promiscuous culture.
Promiscuity is the leading cause of single motherhood. Many women will rather have children with alpha men (who will later abandon them) rather than with good beta providers (whom they find dull and boring).
The social effects of unleashed promiscuity are enormous - 40% out of wedlock births, single motherhood and increased Govt debt/ taxation to support single motherhood by the State which steps in to replace the father.
Single motherhood produces children 2 to 10 times more likely to suffer from:
Argument 3: Atheism promotes promiscuity (Edit: by being silent about it)
I am not saying that atheism caused promiscuity (that happened in the 60s due to a variety of other reasons including feminism) but atheism has played a role in the rise of moral relativism, especially with respect to promiscuity.
The Golden Rule is perhaps the first tenet of religious morality but it is not the only one. The second most important tenet of religious morality is monogamy.
I have seen many arguments about how atheists are equally moral (if not more so) than religious people. In all these arguments, people assume that morality = Golden Rule.
Based on my personal experiences, many atheists seem to think that:
Morality = the Golden Rule
Promiscuity = personal freedom (i.e.) promiscuity is acceptable behavior that the Church restricts because the Church is old and stupid. Many atheists don't seem to realize the far reaching social effects of promiscuity.
This moral relativism on promiscuity is obvious even in this site. For example http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/atheists-are-not-moral-peo... does not deal with promiscuity at all. http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/what-is-your-stance-on-mar... has answers from many atheists clearly exhibiting moral relativism on the subject of promiscuity.
[Edit: The majority of your arguments were against this. I can understand why this may look like a strawman argument. Let me clarify:
There is a strong correlation between divorce risk and low IQ. There is also a strong correlation between high IQ and atheism (giving you folks a compliment, take it :) ).
Atheism as a movement, originated primarily amongst high IQ society. But it has now gone mainstream and is growing fast, scarily fast almost. As Uncle Ben put it, "with great power comes great responsibility". But Atheism does not seem to be taking up that responsibility from the Church. Yes, the Church is broken and old and corrupt and its practitioners are bigots and hypocrites. But, it is still the only thing out there taking a stand against promiscuity. Atheists seem to walk away from the responsibility of condemning promiscuity and most Atheists promote sexual freedom.
Morality naturally comes to Atheists because they are high-IQ individuals who are better able to visualize the impact of their life choices in the future. But, as atheism goes mainstream and the Church dies out, what happens to all the voices condemning promiscuous behavior?
We are not more evolved now in anyway than we were in the past. We are, still at our core, apes struggling to build great civilizations. We all (especially low IQ individuals) need moral guidance to help us in this struggle, to make better life choices.
Can you point links to me about prominent Atheists condemning promiscuity? Is the Atheist movement willing to take up the mantle of promoting social morality from the Church after slaying it? ]
[Edit 2: I am not a troll, I've just been super busy last few days, I will have more time this weekend to reply to some comments below. The essential thing I am trying to say is that religion is not pure evil, and we should not look at it in terms of black and white.
There are definitely good things about religion. There is a very interesting theory that religions also evolve over time and the most popular religions are the most useful ones to society, and they became popular precisely because they were an advantage to societies that adopted them. For example, societies with religions that promoted monogamy were almost always more successful in combat over societies that had religions that did not emphasize monogamy. The reason is because in societies that practiced monogamy, soldiers had a genetic stake in survival of that society (they had their own children to protect). Rome fell because of polygamy - the top politicians had harems and orgies and monopolized the women, resulting in loss of morale amongst troops who did not get the chance to be fathers. Rome was increasingly forced to rely on mercenaries rather than patriotic troops to protect her. After the treasury ran out, Rome collapsed because disenfranchised beta males, who had no genetic stake in Rome, simply walked off and allowed the barbarians to invade.
My point of view has always been "What is best for society?", and not "What is true?". Atheism is the correct working hypothesis because there is no proof for God and we have to use Occam's razor at all times. I don't see any downside consequences of high IQ people discovering/ discussing Atheism. But, we have a moral obligation (as the high IQ elites in our society) to do what's best for society. Imagine a ghetto filled with the poorest, uneducated people in our society. We have to make the decisions that will benefit them.
I don't really have a problem with Atheism, but I have significant issues with the Atheist Movement. For instance, take the advertisement "There is no God, Relax". This advertisement is targeted at people who have made bad choices in their life and have been sexually irresponsible. They are probably feeling guilty about these choices and the Atheist Movement is offering them an easy way out. It tells them "There is no Hell or Heaven, so relax and continue making bad choices". In reality, there is no hell or heaven, but there are societal consequences of your choices. In reality, guilt is often a very useful biological mechanism for correcting bad behavior, but Atheism is offering them a way to rationalize away their guilt so that they can continue making bad choices. I am speaking about this from personal experience, I have known people who commit adultery and rationalize their guilt because they think that the concept of 'sin' is meaningless as there is no God.
Also, to all people accusing me of being a sexist and having double standards, I am not asking for double standards from men and women; I am demanding high standards of expected social morality from both sexes. How is that sexist in any way?]
I am going to judge the merit of a social construct on the basis of its usefulness, not on the basis of its truthfulness. I will only promote an idea to society only if I am convinced it will help society.
If the Traditional Conservative Church (not the Modern version that tolerates no-fault divorce) is useful to society as an institution that encourages monogamy, I would rather have that than Atheism.
I suppose a theist might argue that what's lacking in atheist morality is consequences for being immoral.
I believe in a distinction between morality and ethics such that morality means following a set code of some sort (10 commandments, golden rule) whereas ethics involves a lot more or weighing the issues and making a choice based on facts and predictable consequences. The latter isn't morality and it is probably the way conscientious atheists go about making difficult choices involving consequences on others.
I know some argue that morality and ethics are basically synonyms, but it's always better to hang onto meaningful distinctions rather than muddy things up with synonymy.
RE: "consequences" - as nearly anyone can tell you who's ever tried it, virtue is its own punishment!
I was of the impression, that 'morality' via a writen code, would only be useful for people that are challenged by independent thought. The writen code is only as good as the rather unthinking human application, as if it is a computer program: Problem, identify moral restraint, then apply mandate. Sadly the level of cultural evolution since the code was writen, might not allow a consistent application, without more deeper thought, now ethics enters the picture. We are now being called to 'think', not just react.
Then sexually abstinent atheists shouldn't exist, and I happen to know they do so... well, see any of the answers preceding mine regarding non sequiturs.
Effective accessible contraception would probably resolve your issues.
I can't believe this thread is still going like this. I think it started in... October?
On slow topic days or weeks, some here have a tendency to dig up the oldies but goodies.
I think this could be really cool. All Atheists become whatever religion they fancy suits them. If one likes polygamy, choose Islam or underage girls, Mormon is the right religion for you, if one wants the kudos of being a theist, become a priest if you like children, and if you want to have a lot of money, there are many mentors to choose from. The pope is one of the best money raisers the world has seen, while having the power to protect said pedohiles. Even living as an ordinary priest, you will get a house, with housekeeper, cook, and cleaner.
Mother Teresa, pulled the sympathy card to get untold millions, while her catholic patients starved to death, or died from infections or died from not having operations they needed, while sleeping in filth on camper beds. The fabulous Mother Teresa could have had the best hospital in the world, but no, she saved her money for the glory of god. Viva la christians, that is what I say.
Have your mentor as Ted Haggart if you are gay, but still want to denigrate gays, of course, hiding one's true self in the meantime. How about Benny Hinns, another of the money makers, treating his followers like idiots, but of course, they couldn't see that. It seems one just has to learn to be sneaky.
Then go to any typical type suburbia, and see who is sleeping with whom, then going to church every Sunday, just have to learn how to be surreptitious.
You are either honest, truthful, trusted, or you are not. I have known men to go to their mistresses place, when the wife was in hospital having a baby. Then going to church on Sunday.
Promiscuity is the leading cause of single motherhood - It is education that is the key. EDUCATION - for both male and female. Lack of knowledge about anything is dangerous, even more so with sex, but if we are to feel 'holier than thou', and ' there but for the grace of god, go I', one must become a theist.
I do agree, men are polygamous, therefore don't get married, and bring children into the quagmire of pretense, that christians have lovely, truthful, honest lives.
May have to do something about those bloody prostitutes, whose main clients are married, christian men.
If somebody announces the fact that they are a Christian, I run. This is from experience. But I am pretty sure I may be able to change, and lie, cheat, steal with the best of them. Mmmm, maybe not, this could be a tad difficult, but I could try really, really hard.
@John Prendergast - Exactly.
But if I was going to follow anybody, it would be Arya Tara. She sounds pretty good.
Traditional Conservative Church - Oh, yes, absolutely brilliant, and how far back do you think we should go - which one, the Mormons who make their wives walking incubators, or the ones who want the women at home, subjucated by the male, producing as many children as they can, or the ones that just hate women, or traditional conservative pedophiles.
Could you maybe suggest a particular god we should start following, or what particular religious group we should change to, to get on this path of 'righteousness'.
Could you maybe suggest a particular god we should start following, or what particular religious group we should change to, to get on this path of 'righteousness'.
Just make one up. It's been done before... like, just about every time so far.
@onyango makagutu - thank you, kind sir. Are you with me, which religion should we choose. Can you think of one, where we would be better, more moral, more ethical, more honest more loyal to our partners than we are now.
But, if I give up Atheism, will I also have to give up bar-b-queuing marinated babies????
I am really curious to see which religion this fellow thinks we could/should join, or should we just start our own, to be monogamous. Lots of money to be made if one has no conscience.
It is an old topic, I just haven't seen it before, which is exactly why it is regurgitated.
Maybe we should select a piece of each religion. To start with we can sacrifice whoever we meet first when we return from battle and being bathed in blood for sins I don't what of.
He need to describe the religion he thinks we should join