Giving up on Atheism - Atheism promotes promiscuity and is bad for society
I am an atheist/ agnostic but after careful thinking, I've decided that perhaps virulently promoting atheism (as this community is doing) isn't really good for society. Please don't get offended, just read my arguments below calmly and rationally. If you can argue that I am wrong, I will listen to those arguments and change my opinion.
Note 1: I am using science in all my arguments, not religion.Not all my links point to scientific studies, but I'm sure you could find relevant evolutionary psychology papers if you googled for it.
Note 2: Please don't take offense, I'm not a sexist or a misogynist. I am trying hard to be as unemotional as possible in my arguments.
Argument 1: Polygamy is bad for society
What percentage of our (pre-civilizational/ barbaric) ancestors are males? The answer is not 50%. As evolutionary psychology points out, 80% of our female ancestors managed to reproduce but only 40% of our male ancestors did so. (Link: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm). Simply put, in barbaric societies, males were the high-risk high-reward sex whereas females were the low-risk low-reward sex.
Why?
Males are genetically polygynous (interested in sex with as many women as possible - this makes sense as men can produce millions of sperm every day and have a low reproductive cost)
Females are naturally hypergamous (interested in only one man but the best; the top 'alpha' man - this makes sense as a female produces one egg per month and has a high reproductive cost due to pregnancy and child birth).
When sexuality is uncontrolled, the combination of male polygyny and female hypergamy results in polygamy a.k.a harems (one man having sex & children with multiple women).
The ones who suffer are the beta males - the ones who have been sexually selected out. They typically become violent and don't contribute to society. There is an argument to be made that the Taliban practices polygamy and this is the source of violent behavior of terrorists from that part of the world. (Link: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/ten-politically-inco...)
When promiscuity is controlled through strictly enforced monogamy, every man gets a wife. This reduces violent behavior and unlocks the productive capacity in males. I don't have the link available but a man who is already married or believes that he will marry in the future will be 4x productive as an unmarried man who does not believe that he will ever marry (e.g.) Japanese grass-eaters ostracized by an increasingly promiscuous Japan (Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/27/japan-grass-eaters-sala...)
Alpha men don't significantly contribute to society - they are not scientific geniuses or hard workers. They are typically physically aggressive men. Contrary to feminist dogma, physically dominant men (even dominant to the point of abusive) are attractive to women because they exhibit alpha tendencies - The Dark Triad of Narcissism, Machiavellianism and Psychopathy.
Alpha men understand their higher attractiveness (compared to betas) and adopt a pump-and-dump sexual attitude. They have many sexual partners but don't bother helping with raising their young; some of their young will die due to lack of resources but they make up for it in numbers.
Betas adopt a nourish-and-protect sexual attitude. They have only one sexual partner, whom they win by proving their love and commitment. Then they have children with only this partner, but provide resources and protection to ensure their children grow up successfully.
Monogamy is the cornerstone of civilization. See the Moralia versus Libertalia argument (Link: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/10/14/relationshipstrategies/how...). In a monogamous society, with greater male economic participation and lesser violence, prosperity, rule of law and art flourish.
Argument 2: Promiscuity naturally leads to beta ostracism and harms society
Promiscuity - Defn: Any form of sex outside of monogamous marriage (including exclusive relationships)
Non-exclusive relationships (polyamorous relationships) are almost always polygamous (one alpha man with many women). This results in many beta men losing out.
Exclusive relationships also result in beta men losing out - Why? If enough alpha men are not available, hypergamous females would rather not enter into any relationship at all rather than be with beta men - "The Where have all the good men gone?" tirade from many women in modern promiscuous culture.
Promiscuity is the leading cause of single motherhood. Many women will rather have children with alpha men (who will later abandon them) rather than with good beta providers (whom they find dull and boring).
The social effects of unleashed promiscuity are enormous - 40% out of wedlock births, single motherhood and increased Govt debt/ taxation to support single motherhood by the State which steps in to replace the father.
Single motherhood produces children 2 to 10 times more likely to suffer from:
- substance abuse
- truancy
- health problems
- being abused
- behavioral problems and personality disorders
- criminal behavior
- gang activity
- suicide and running away
- dropping out at all levels of education
- incarceration as youths and adults
- sexually transmitted diseases
- having children outside of relationships
- becoming teenage parents
(Link: http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/2012/03/transcript-of-fempocalyp...)
Argument 3: Atheism promotes promiscuity (Edit: by being silent about it)
I am not saying that atheism caused promiscuity (that happened in the 60s due to a variety of other reasons including feminism) but atheism has played a role in the rise of moral relativism, especially with respect to promiscuity.
The Golden Rule is perhaps the first tenet of religious morality but it is not the only one. The second most important tenet of religious morality is monogamy.
I have seen many arguments about how atheists are equally moral (if not more so) than religious people. In all these arguments, people assume that morality = Golden Rule.
Based on my personal experiences, many atheists seem to think that:
Morality = the Golden Rule
Promiscuity = personal freedom (i.e.) promiscuity is acceptable behavior that the Church restricts because the Church is old and stupid. Many atheists don't seem to realize the far reaching social effects of promiscuity.
This moral relativism on promiscuity is obvious even in this site. For example http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/atheists-are-not-moral-peo... does not deal with promiscuity at all. http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/what-is-your-stance-on-mar... has answers from many atheists clearly exhibiting moral relativism on the subject of promiscuity.
[Edit: The majority of your arguments were against this. I can understand why this may look like a strawman argument. Let me clarify:
There is a strong correlation between divorce risk and low IQ. There is also a strong correlation between high IQ and atheism (giving you folks a compliment, take it :) ).
Atheism as a movement, originated primarily amongst high IQ society. But it has now gone mainstream and is growing fast, scarily fast almost. As Uncle Ben put it, "with great power comes great responsibility". But Atheism does not seem to be taking up that responsibility from the Church. Yes, the Church is broken and old and corrupt and its practitioners are bigots and hypocrites. But, it is still the only thing out there taking a stand against promiscuity. Atheists seem to walk away from the responsibility of condemning promiscuity and most Atheists promote sexual freedom.
Morality naturally comes to Atheists because they are high-IQ individuals who are better able to visualize the impact of their life choices in the future. But, as atheism goes mainstream and the Church dies out, what happens to all the voices condemning promiscuous behavior?
We are not more evolved now in anyway than we were in the past. We are, still at our core, apes struggling to build great civilizations. We all (especially low IQ individuals) need moral guidance to help us in this struggle, to make better life choices.
Can you point links to me about prominent Atheists condemning promiscuity? Is the Atheist movement willing to take up the mantle of promoting social morality from the Church after slaying it? ]
[Edit 2: I am not a troll, I've just been super busy last few days, I will have more time this weekend to reply to some comments below. The essential thing I am trying to say is that religion is not pure evil, and we should not look at it in terms of black and white.
There are definitely good things about religion. There is a very interesting theory that religions also evolve over time and the most popular religions are the most useful ones to society, and they became popular precisely because they were an advantage to societies that adopted them. For example, societies with religions that promoted monogamy were almost always more successful in combat over societies that had religions that did not emphasize monogamy. The reason is because in societies that practiced monogamy, soldiers had a genetic stake in survival of that society (they had their own children to protect). Rome fell because of polygamy - the top politicians had harems and orgies and monopolized the women, resulting in loss of morale amongst troops who did not get the chance to be fathers. Rome was increasingly forced to rely on mercenaries rather than patriotic troops to protect her. After the treasury ran out, Rome collapsed because disenfranchised beta males, who had no genetic stake in Rome, simply walked off and allowed the barbarians to invade.
My point of view has always been "What is best for society?", and not "What is true?". Atheism is the correct working hypothesis because there is no proof for God and we have to use Occam's razor at all times. I don't see any downside consequences of high IQ people discovering/ discussing Atheism. But, we have a moral obligation (as the high IQ elites in our society) to do what's best for society. Imagine a ghetto filled with the poorest, uneducated people in our society. We have to make the decisions that will benefit them.
I don't really have a problem with Atheism, but I have significant issues with the Atheist Movement. For instance, take the advertisement "There is no God, Relax". This advertisement is targeted at people who have made bad choices in their life and have been sexually irresponsible. They are probably feeling guilty about these choices and the Atheist Movement is offering them an easy way out. It tells them "There is no Hell or Heaven, so relax and continue making bad choices". In reality, there is no hell or heaven, but there are societal consequences of your choices. In reality, guilt is often a very useful biological mechanism for correcting bad behavior, but Atheism is offering them a way to rationalize away their guilt so that they can continue making bad choices. I am speaking about this from personal experience, I have known people who commit adultery and rationalize their guilt because they think that the concept of 'sin' is meaningless as there is no God.
Also, to all people accusing me of being a sexist and having double standards, I am not asking for double standards from men and women; I am demanding high standards of expected social morality from both sexes. How is that sexist in any way?]
Summary
I am going to judge the merit of a social construct on the basis of its usefulness, not on the basis of its truthfulness. I will only promote an idea to society only if I am convinced it will help society.
If the Traditional Conservative Church (not the Modern version that tolerates no-fault divorce) is useful to society as an institution that encourages monogamy, I would rather have that than Atheism.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Unseen on -
I certainly don't agree with the original poster, but I must correct you a bit. Promiscuity isn't having lots of sex, it's having lots of sex partners. I won't say promiscuity is good or bad, but I do know that a promiscuous person is a lot more likely to both contract and spread STD's. That can't really be disputed.
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Permalink Reply by joshua james on -
I get that but this man seem to have the same mind as any misogynistic man, that any woman who has sex with "several" partners is promiscuous. I believe he got the idea that atheist women are "promiscuous" from atheist groups in facebook or whatever. It's true that atheist women are more open about their sexuality. they do not try to hide it like religious women. and from any misogynistic/sexist man's point of view any woman who expresses their sexuality is a slut/promiscuous.
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Permalink Reply by joshua james on
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don't we all ;)
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Permalink Reply by Eric A. Karno on -
I really can't offer too much more than: Epic Fail!
If you start an argument on a nonsensical premise (atheism promotes promiscuity), have nothing to even remotely support the premise, any conclusion you reach which verifies the premise is bound to be nonsensical.
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Permalink Reply by James Cox on
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I did hear once that Humanist conferences are great places to pick up wild freethinking babes!
Probably just a rumor to get folks to come..;p)
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Permalink Reply by James Cox on
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I have never been to an Atheist conference, but maybe we are dull, introspective, party poopers.
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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on -
Sounds like my Hippy Days!
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Permalink Reply by Brian Daurelle on -
Your entire arguement regarding what you seem to believe are the evils of sexual promiscuity can be reduced to a single fallacy, one which is broadly applied to religion in general, in defense of its merits. I have had many religious people defend their practise to me by saying, as you do, that if the good outweighs the bad, then why not take advantage of what good there is? A similar arguement is made by appologists ranging from those who want only to raise their kids in a church setting to those who defend missionary work in Africa.
Here, now, is why that arguement is bunk: it assumes that the benefits of the religious community are inextricable from the cockamamy details that have been invented or evolved to accomodate it. Religions have evolved moral guidelines because they provide an effective enforcement system for social codes that promote flourishing. This fact alone does not lend any credence to the details that a religion has invented to explain or justify those systems.
For example, monogamy has allowed humans to flourish, as you demonstrate; now, are we to suppose that monogamy is a product of religion, or is the religious enforcement of monogamy a result of a darwinian process in which non-monogamous religions tend to die out or be overrun? If the former is true, we would perhaps have an interest in preserving those religions that, without which, we would lose all our tendency towards monogamy. However, this is manifestly not the case; the major religions of the day only have such strong monogamist tendencies because those were sucessful in the past and allowed those religions to flourish (among other things). Indeed, religious mumbo-jumbo can just as easily be re-purposed to promote polygamy and harem-culture (i.e. the Taliban, the FLDS cults).
To expand this arguement, I would say the same to people who want to raise kids in a church to give them good values, or want to continue 'faith-based' charity work in impoverished areas of the world; we know how to raise moral children, we know how to provide effective aid, we know how to promote stable and comfortable family structures, so why can't we jettison all of the outdated superstition, the old working theories made up by desert nomads, and replace all that with sound, scientific explanations that allow us flexibility and freedom to deal with contemporary circumstances? I think you have perhaps mistaken Atheism for a complete moral relativism or nihilism, a lack of interest in seeing the world improved. On the contrary, I think (I hope) you will find that most atheists have been brought to their current worldview by the realization that religious practise is a hopelessly parochial impediment to effective change in the world, and that only a well-reasoned, evidence-based approach to the world can provide the answers we are in need of.
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Permalink Reply by archaeopteryx on
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RE: "Religions have evolved moral guidelines because they provide an effective enforcement system for social codes"
In fact, those religious guidelines are more effective than governmental laws - a clever lawbreaker may feel he can break a law with impunity, whereas he can never hope to deceive an omniscient, omnipotent god.
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Permalink Reply by Obfuskation on -
1) I am an atheist/ agnostic but after careful thinking, I've decided that perhaps virulently promoting atheism (as this community is doing) isn't really good for society.
-> This is an over-generalization of the agnostic/atheistic community. We are talking about a community that spans the range of agnosticism, atheism, and anti-theism. There is an equally wide range of relationships between these individuals and theists of all ‘brands’. Your claim could also be restated, “I’ve decided that perhaps virulently promoting reality based thinking (as this community is doing) isn’t really good for society.” I consider that to be a bad premise.
2) Argument 1: Polygamy is bad for society
Argument 2: Promiscuity naturally leads to beta ostracism and harms society
Argument 3: Atheism promotes promiscuity (Edit: by being silent about it)
…Atheists seem to walk away from the responsibility of condemning promiscuity …-> Arguments 1 & 2 are valid discussions in and of themselves. However, argument 3 is an unsound premise. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods. Morality and social activism are separate issues. Perhaps this would be better stated that part of the secular humanist cause [or members of society as a whole] should include addressing promiscuity. Simply being atheist does not obligate any additional responsibilities to society, again, it is simply lack of belief in gods.
3) Summary
I am going to judge the merit of a social construct on the basis of its usefulness, not on the basis of its truthfulness. I will only promote an idea to society only if I am convinced it will help society.-> The implication of this is that you are willing to promote fantasy over reality, because you think there may be some benefit to it. Again, I don’t see any evidence to support this premise as sound.
4) If the Traditional Conservative Church (not the Modern version that tolerates no-fault divorce) is useful to society as an institution that encourages monogamy, I would rather have that than Atheism.
-> I would like to see this point developed more. Which traditional church? What positive and negative aspects are you balancing when you propose following an organization based on unrealistic beliefs in order to minimize the single issue of monogamy?
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Permalink Reply by Rob Klaers on -
In regards to your arguments..
Argument 1: Polygamy is bad for societyThat sounds to me more like an argument for Atheism then for Christianity. Especially, when you consider just how many wives some of the most known men from the Bible had.. For example
Chronicles 13:21 Abijah had 14 wives
Genesis 16:1 – 3, Abram /Abraham had as least two. His first wife who wasn't able to have kids, so he set up one of their servants as a second wife.Daniel 5:2 Belshazzar also had at least 2 wives
David is supposed to have had several hundred wives. Not to mention several hundred concubines.
Judges 8:30 - Gideon had 70 sons as a result of multiple wives..
That's only a few.. So if anything the Bible, in the OT at least, promotes polygamy,
Argument 2: Promiscuity naturally leads to beta ostracism and harms society. That would only be relevant to those sects of Mormonism which promote it and form their own communities. Such as those who strictly follow Joseph Smith's doctrines.
People such as :Church president Brigham Young had 51 wives, and 56 children by 16 of those wives. and Church apostle Heber C. Kimball had 43 wives, and had 65 children by 17 different women.
I'm not one to bash another atheist, but when you say you've done your research and you make tenuous (at best) connections to atheism and polygmany, I have to wonder two things, one if you really know what atheism is and two, how you could make a connection between it and promiscuity.
Argument 3: Atheism promotes promiscuity
Again, one has nothing to do with the other.. If anything Christianity silently promotes it as exampled by the OT references I made earlier..
I daresay your premise and your arguments are fundamentally faulty,.
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