Are you an atheist who belives in freewill. Or are you long past believing in the concept of freewill? I cannot imagine being a non-theist and still believing in freewill so I am curious how you feel about the concept.

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So like Dan Dennet we are good flying object avoiders. No offense but I just see that attitude as a cop out. Not quite ready to succumb to the reality that we are machines with absolutely no control. All is an illusion made up by our brains.
Alleging, ha, no I am quite sure we are nothing more than machines. Consciousness is just an illusion.

Nihilists are not that sophisticated in their thinking, LoL!

:-) 

 

Peace to you my friend.

Consciousness, in its most basic sense, is awareness of one's own existence.  How can you be illusorily aware of your own existence?  That's a paradox.

Calling something a cop out isn't an argument, it is actually a red herring. "Not quite ready to succumb to the reality that we are machines with absolutely no control. All is an illusion made up by our brains." this is nothing but a straw man. no offense, but you are not making any arguments, you are merely exerting your views. 

I agree, I was never arguing a point. I am sorry if I mislead you.

I have no doubt we are nothing more than machines, but I will leave it up to the professionals to "prove" it.
Personally I think we are free to make some choices, but not all.  I did not choose to be an atheist, it is what I am, but I can choose whether to have a PB&J or a baloney sammich for lunch.

I would consider arguing with you that your body , what you ate the past week , the weather , the amount of time you have to prepare either item , how healthy you feel like being that particular day ... so many previous states of being and reality that are ALL factors in your 'free will' decision.  

 

Something like this:  If you per chance you know you don't have enough time to cook spaghetti and meatballs for lunch , but DO have enough time to slap together a sandwich , you don't really choose the sandwich.  It's just rational to do so based upon other factors.  It just makes sense to not be late for work and make a quick sandwich.  Or your body could wake up one morning and just decide it wants peanut butter.  That 'craving' one get's sometimes when they think about a certain food item ... subconscious feelings about health .. etc.  

 

I compare this to the fact you didn't 'choose' to be an Atheist.  It is just the most rational decision based upon evidence and reality.  

OK, call me stupid here, but if what you say is true, that we did not choose to be atheists, then those inflicted with religion did not choose their worldview either. Correct?

 

I understand your PB&J sandwich reasoning, but explain this. If I am standing on a corner and a pair of identical twins are calling to me to sell me a  knockoff Gucci bag with the exact same phrase, neither louder than the other nor closer to me than the other, wearing the exact same clothes, using the exact same body language, if I really want that Gucci bag I will have to chose one. What previous state could you image that would influence my decision?

probably the thing most likely to influence your (illusionary) decision is the level of sunspot activity on the previous day.

Even identical twins will look different and have slightly different voices and body language so something would attract you to one over the other. But I'll assume hypothetically they were exactly identical in every way and saying the same phrases simultaneously so neither got your attention first while holding out identical bags at the same time. Perhaps you looked to the left first because you grew up in a culture reading from left to right. Perhaps the sun caught the metal on one of the bags and made it sparkle. Perhaps you're right handed and more likely to hold cash in your right hand which would put the bag on the right closer to you, so you gravitate towards that one. Or, most likely, you would hold out the cash and let whichever twin grabbed the money first make the decision for you.

 

Regardless, a lot more subconscious things go into this kind of "conscious choice" than people realize.

just read your response after I wrote mine. I like your thinking ;)

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