Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Tom on April 4, 2012 at 9:34pm

Certainly not reliable, but I think sufficient to be justified. Considering the incredibly small chance of being caught in the act, I think it is the preferable choice. I'm afraid without the study (and perhaps 50 more like it) I will never be convinced otherwise. 

Permalink Reply by Daniel on April 5, 2012 at 1:21am

Negative reinforcement does produce positive changes when coupled with positive reinforcement.  carrot and stick. The level of negative reinforcement is debatable. Their are also some members of humanity that will only respond to negative reinforcement and severe negative reinforcement at that. 

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Permalink Reply by Richard E. Robertson on April 5, 2012 at 1:41am

As one person demanded of me, can you give me a direct cite of the research to support this? Yes, there such people as you describe - they are called "psychopaths". And they are so dangerous to the community that, unless someday a "cure" can be found, lethal force is likely required. And, yes, that's a pretty harsh demand, but if an individual is actively hostile and destructive to his/her community regardless what measures are taken to dissuade them, then it's justified solely on the basis of self-defense. 

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Permalink Reply by John Kelly on April 5, 2012 at 2:23am

Actually, a number of studies I was covering during my Lifespan Development class seemed to indicate that in China and in African-American populations (essentially those that use punishment).  What has seemed to be the deciding factor is the level of positive regard toward the child.  If proper attention and positive regard are present, punishment is not an emotionally damaging experience.

However, the caveat is that in the USA, due to the earlier studies, this has become a near impossiblity.  And not using punishment is still a more effective method.  However China produces a surprisingly strong work ethic.  However, they are beginning to adopt western methods as well.

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Permalink Reply by Richard E. Robertson on April 5, 2012 at 2:37am

I can see punishment immediately as a trespass occurs, limited in duration, and mostly to indicate specific conduct as not acceptable as being instructive, as long as their is support afterwards to reinforce the child's sense of being accepted as being workable - which is what I think you are describing. I'd need to have more information about these studies and their criticisms to make any determination of their worth. Don't worry, I was stuck tonight having lost track of the specifics of a study I hadn't seen in 15 years when someone asked me to cite it. :) I know how that sucks.

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Permalink Reply by John Kelly on April 5, 2012 at 2:40am

http://www.oberlin.edu/faculty/ndarling/lab/psychbull.pdf

Found the study.  The great thing is that is is pretty comprehensive on past research, so you may find what you were looking for too.

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Permalink Reply by Richard E. Robertson on April 5, 2012 at 2:44am

Sweet. You said "a number of studies" Would have been nice to have been able to compare across different ones. Any references to criticisms of the study? Seeing the process of peer-review is helpful.

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Permalink Reply by John Kelly on April 5, 2012 at 3:08am

I can't remember what else I ran across when I was doing research for that class, but the study in there is really the most important of them and any counter research would be concerned with refuting this.  

Dornbusch, S. M., Ritter, P. L., Leiderman, P. H., Roberts, D. F., & Fraleigh, M. J. (1987). The relation of parenting style to adolescent school performance. Child Development, 58, 1244–1257

 From what I have seen though it seems to be fairly accepted, though I just saw a study which seems to contradict it.  However this may also be due to the changing values inside of China as it adopts western values. 

Authoritative and Authoritarian Parenting Practices and Social and School Performance in Chinese Children doi: 10.1080/016502597384703International Journal of Behavioral Development November 1997 vol. 21no. 4 855-873

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Permalink Reply by Richard E. Robertson on April 5, 2012 at 3:12am

It's hard to do any serious studies on childhood development too. I've only seen one that managed to overcome the usual obstacles and it was a nightmare to keep going. The duration alone was over 20 years.

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Permalink Reply by Tom on April 5, 2012 at 9:59am

BTW, I wasn't considering the issue with children in mind, rather adults. I completely agree with regard to children; their actions have consequences so minimal that post-action punishment will rarely be justified or effective. People beyond their formative years, however, will usually have more intractable personality traits, and can probably not be so easily sculpted by positive reinforcement, although it may still be helpful. Adults are also unlikely to be so easily duped by the kind of gimmicks that seduce children.

Permalink Reply by Unseen on April 4, 2012 at 9:47pm

A lot of this discussion has devolved into a discussion of crime, punishment, and justice, all of which presume that the criminal may not have free will, but the rest of us do, so that we can freely decide the best way to handle criminality and mete out punishment or justice.

The thing is, if there is no free will, then we are no more free than the criminal and, like the criminal we simply do what we have to do, and not because what we do is justified or good. We may feel what we do is justified or good, but basically we're trapped just like the criminal, responding according to the laws of nature as the come to bear on our nervous systems.

I paraphrase Frank Zappa from his Freak Out! album: "Help I'm (like) a rock." Rocks behave according to the physical laws of nature, and so do we.

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Permalink Reply by Tom on April 5, 2012 at 9:51am

Yeah, you're right. I suppose the discussion is better viewed from the perspective of what we hope we will do, rather than what we will choose to do. Of course we do not essentially have the ability to make truly independent choices based on the our knowledge of free will's absence; however, if we learn of its non-existence this will likely influence the mental processes that currently manifest as free will, this should bring about a different set of circumstances than a situation in which people were not having these discussions. Everything is predetermined or random (but not chosen) so what we are really saying is that what we are currently discussing is important in 'forcing' us to react a certain way to criminals etc. It's kind of an academic issue about whether it is good or bad to believe in free will, rather than whether we should or shouldn't, which is out of our hands. But yeah, in terms of what's going to happen, we are "like a rock".

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