I may be a jokster, but I am not cold-hearted. I would never wish death upon someone. I meant what I said and I stand by it. And I think it's very small of a person to want another person to die.
To me that sounds either a little naive or a little dishonest.
Being glad when someone is dead isn't the same as wanting them to die. But it doesn't matter. There are plenty of cases where I would want (or have wanted, or do want) people to die, on top of being glad (or knowing I would be glad) they're dead.
I would use deadly force to stop criminals from hurting me and my family (as in a home invasion) and be glad when they hit the floor dead.
I think men like Osama bin Ladin, Muammar Qaddafi and Saddam Hussein deserved to die. Now they're all dead and I'm glad. The same goes for every Taliban bent on killing an American soldier (or school kid) for Allah in Afghanistan. I hope they die and I'm glad when they do.
For similar reasons, I'm glad Fred Phelps is (nearly) dead and will be glad when Warren Jeffs is dead (after he spends a very long time in prison). These men dedicated their lives to (ab)using freedoms of religion and expression to systematically hurt and oppress others. Killing someone for abhorrent activism or repulsive religious beliefs would be unethical and (at least to me) is unthinkable. But I don't see any reason not to feel glad when people like these are dead and gone.
What's so "small" about that?
If there was a hell I'd be only too pleased to hold the door for them. But there isn't, so this little post with the Kool and the Gang dance party will have to do. I think they got off easy.
Gallup: Being glad when someone is dead isn't the same as wanting them to die.
Belle: True, but you're picking out flowers for the funeral and these men aren't even dead yet.
Let's be fair, now. I picked out a Satanist minister and two lesbians, not flowers.
Besides, even if I wanted Fred Phelps or anyone else to keel over, what's the difference? I also want to win the next Powerball lottery but that has no effect on making it happen.
Whether wanting it to happen or when it actually does happen, when a professional hate-monger or religiously-motivated child rapist is dead and gone, I feel pleasure and satisfaction.
Cult leaders are like ants. There are always...more...ants. So the illusion that these men passing away would be a "good" thing is.......a delusion.
I said it makes me glad.
Whether or not the death of a given hate-monger or megalomaniac does any "good" (in addition to making me feel glad that he's dead) is beside the point and another conversation.
The atrocities they have created will not be stopped just because they are dead any more than terrorist attacks will cease just because Osama Bin Laden is dead.
Cults do sometimes die out with their leaders. And the cessation of terrorist attacks is an unrealistic measure of progress. A reduction in frequency and severity will do.
But that doesn't matter. It still pleases me that Osama bin Laden is dead. I feel it every time I drive into Mahattan and see two giant holes in the sky where the Twin Towers used to be. Call it justice or revenge, I don't care. I'm glad that murdering motherfucker is fish food.
So who's the nieve one? And dishonest? I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. I'm stone cold serious about this one.
I mean 'naive' in that I find your argument (not you as a person) unsophisticated. There are many situations where one person wants another to die or actually kills him and for good reasons (not "small" ones).
I mean 'dishonest' in that I find it difficult to believe you can't imagine wanting to kill someone (to save someone you love, for instance) or wanting someone to die for having committed a terrible wrong, or that you can't understand why someone else might want that. I think it's more likely you prefer not to contemplate it or just didn't think it through before you replied initially. But that's only my impression. I don't really know. You tell me.
"Justice and change only come about when the people alive are willing to do what's right." - well said.
Gallup: Besides, even if I wanted Fred Phelps or anyone else to keel over, what's the difference?
Belle: Well, you did say and I quote, "Being glad when someone is dead isn't the same as wanting them to die." Since Fred Phelps isn't dead (yet) you are saying you want him to die. Right?
I was saying I wanted you to explain the difference. Tell me why it matters.
Is that why this thread was started asking us how we "feel" about a man about to croak?
That's how it started. We've progressed into me asking you to explain why it's "small" to feel satisfaction when hate mongers and terrorists die. (And to you not explaining why.)
These kinds of people die every day. There are millions of them locked away in prisons all around the world. Just because they never reach the ABC/NBC/CNN/FOX world of micro managed reality does not mean that the victims affected by their crimes or religious hatred and bigotry has not affected the victim's life deeply and forever. The only difference is you haven't heard about it, for whatever reason.
I don't know what that means.
I haven't suggested crime victims aren't affected by the crimes committed against them. How does me not knowing the details of millions of criminal cases have any bearing here?
Why give Fred Phelps the power of making you satisfied when he dies. Does he even deserve your concern?
Fred Phelps has as much power over me as photograph of parachute does to a skydiver falling to his death. I am responsible for what I think and how I feel, not Fred Phelps.
If I didn't think Fred Phelps deserved oblivion, or that the world deserves to be without Fred Phelps, then I wouldn't be glad to know he'll soon be dead.
Belle: The atrocities [cult leaders] have created will not be stopped just because they are dead any more than terrorist attacks will cease just because Osama Bin Laden is dead.
Gallup: Cults do sometimes die out with their leaders. And the cessation of terrorist attacks is an unrealistic measure of progress. A reduction in frequency and severity will do.
Belle: By what stretch of the imagination can you say that?
Because it's not a stretch or imaginary.
Cults do sometimes die out with their leaders. (See Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, Joseph Kibweteere, etc.)
Terrorist attacks can be reduced in frequency and severity by killing the terrorists. ("We find that drone strikes are associated with decreases in the incidence and lethality of terrorist attacks, as well as decreases in particularly intimidating and deadly terrorist tactics, including suicide and improvised explosive devices (IED) attacks.")
Especially regarding Fred Phelps. He already has his little successor (obviously) so when he dies nothing will change.
I didn't say Westboro Baptist Church will die with Fred Phelps. You're switching back and forth between non-specific generalizations about "cult leaders" to one specific leader of a Baptist Church cult: Fred Phelps. My comments above are a response to the former.
Gallup: It still pleases me that Osama bin Laden is dead.
Belle: It hasn't stopped the threat of terrorism. It just got rid of one face. You cannot honestly tell me that the threats are gone now just because he's gone.
That's charming Belle because (speaking of honesty) I said absolutely nothing of the kind.
I told you that "a reduction in frequency and severity" of terrorist attacks is a reasonable, positive outcome of killing terrorists, not that killing Bin Laden means "the threats are gone".
This is the second time you've falsely attributed to me that "terrorist attacks will cease just because Osama Bin Laden is dead". You've overstuffed this strawman, Belle. Time to leave it and move on.
I have tried to kill someone before, out of self defense.
Then when you wrote "I would never wish death upon someone" you really were being dishonest. You cannot try to kill someone and not want them to die.
If you were defending yourself then I'm glad and you had every right to do so. If you had to kill someone to protect yourself, I'd be glad he was dead and you were alive.
I have also been in situations at the jail when I thought I was going to die. It's not the hollywood romanticized glorified power you make it out to be, and there is no revenge worth seeking in it to satisfy any amount of redemption or justice.
Where did I glorify deadly force or killing in self-defense? The only place I've portrayed killing at all is with a link to combat footage taken in Afghanistan. It's real footage, not "Hollywood", and it's ugly and brutal, not glamourous. I'm still glad those Taliban bastards are dying for Allah, whether it's for throwing acid in women's faces or shooting kids in the head for going to school, or killing American soldiers.
I'm also a veteran from another war: the War on Drugs. Not Taliban but filthy drug smugglers who knew they were screwed because they'd just been caught with a couple tons of narcotics. I never fired a shot but I would have to keep them from shooting me or the guy next to me and been glad, not for redemption or justice, but because they were dead and we were alive.
Justice does not get served when people die, just because they die. Justice and change only come about when the people alive are willing to do what's right.
I said the death of Phelps makes me glad. I didn't suggest that it's justice.
Bin Laden is another matter. To know he died by violence in an ambush attack in his home, completely unexpectedly, in the dead of night? Consider the way most of the people he indirectly killed on 911 died. I would call that justice, maybe, or probably the closest to it that he could ever get.
The feelings you have of being happy certain people are dead or wishing them dead is wasted energy as far as I'm concerned.
It takes no energy for me to feel glad that Phelps or Bin Laden are dead. Hatred and anger take energy. Happiness and satisfaction increase energy.
Call my arguments unsophisticated if you like, but I can assure you I've thought about murder, and death far more than you wish to fathom.
Thinking is not the same as articulating thoughts. You may have spent years thinking about it, but the four lines you had expressed at the time I asked you to clarify were a scratch on the surface, not a dive to the intellectual fathoms.
I wouldn't mind seeing a jazz style funeral parade at the next Mardi Gras. Perhaps a WBC float, to boot? Gay Freddies dancing?
Gay Freddies dancing?
Fire it up for Phelps!
Jesus was gay. :)
Really? Spitter or swallower?
I don't know ask Peter or maybe James, I feel sure Judas was the odd man out. :)
@Gallup - "You may have spent years thinking about it, but the four lines you had expressed at the time I asked you to clarify were a scratch on the surface, not a dive to the intellectual fathoms." - no offense, but I think this is impolite. I'm in the same position. I've come very close to both. I don't want to talk about it though.