Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Daria Black on April 22, 2011 at 7:08am

What do you want - a big sticker on the cover with a 'deaf' picture on it?  I suppose they couldn't overlook your deafness then.

 

Your whole reply is just...I don't know wth...but this gem is really uncalled for. It is not unreasonable to think that someone would have told the woman that Judith was deaf. However, even if she didn't know, Judith herself told the woman she was deaf and asked her to take her veil off so that she could understand what she was saying.

 

I asked her to remove her head covering, explaining that I was deaf and needed to see her face and read her lips.

 

My feelings on this is if the woman didn't want to take her veil off then she should have immediately gotten someone else. Instead Judith had to ask her to get her supervisor.

 

There are also other ways the woman could have tried to communicate with Judith. I had a deaf grandmother (she passed away several years ago). I don't know sign language to save my life but we would often write notes to her to communicate. The woman could have written a note. Instead, she threw her bible in Judith's face. It really seemed like there was no effort to meet Judith at least halfway.

 

I worked with the public for almost two decades before getting out and the number one lesson is that you must be able to communicate with everyone and that includes people who are disabled in some way. If your religious practices get in the way of doing your job then it is probably a good idea to find a different job that is in harmony with your religious practices. I mean, seriously, Jewish people who observe the Sabbath work in areas that do not require them to work Friday night to Saturday night.

 

In America, we are having a problem now where people are trying to get a pass on performing their job because their religion does not agree with *their job*. For example, there is legislation floating around that would allow pharmacists to not dispense birth control if their religion says birth control is evil (Catholics). To me, that Muslim woman not taking off her veil or at least trying to make other accommodations is the same exact thing.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on April 22, 2011 at 10:13am

More of a side note here, but lip readers are not as rare as you might think.  A lot of people who are hard of hearing rely on lip reading, it's more of a 50/50 between their reduced hearing and limited lip reading skills.  Most of the time you won't even know lip reading is essential to the person unless, like me, you have a habit of having your hands around your mouth, or perhaps some other habitual behavior that makes it difficult for others to read lips.

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Permalink Reply by Daria Black on April 22, 2011 at 12:30pm

I do object to people like Judith waving their disability around like a 'get out of jail free' card, as if it means that they don't have responsibilities to respect other people like the rest of us do.  It is entirely possible to express anger and frustration without making bigoted statements like calling a woman an idiot for wearing a black niqab.

 

I don't see where she did either of those things. I don't see how telling the woman that she couldn't hear and asking her to take off her niqab so she could communicate with her is throwing her disability in the woman's face unless you think that Judith should have afforded her the special privilege that religion thrives on and not asked her to do so. Is that what offends you? The fact that Judith asked the woman to put aside her religion so that she could facilitate communication with her?

 

As far as I can tell, she did not call the woman names while she was talking to her. Judith may have been pushy because, as you say, things were getting heated and she was trying to get the woman to do her job. However, all of those remarks are part of the narrative of her telling the story to us. And while I agree that some things may have been better left out or worded differently, I don't think her calling the niqab idiotic is bigoted.

 

The special privilege of religion being free from criticism is an ongoing real world issue. If I see a young man with his pants hanging over his butt and I say that (the way he is wearing his pants) is idiotic, am I being bigoted towards that young man? No. If I see a KKK member wearing the white hood and robe, am I being bigoted towards that racist for saying what he is wearing is idiotic? No. So why it is sacrilegious and bigoted to say a certain style of religious dress is idiotic? That's giving religion a free pass from criticism which is not right.

 

I'm sure the Muslim woman has had to deal with a lot of problems due to other people's reaction to her religion and I empathize with her. As an atheist, I know exactly what that is like. But the fact is, her religion stood in the way of her doing her job. According to you her religion should take precedence over her doing her job. Why should she be afforded this special privilege?

 

And it is not that she should not be allowed to do her job but the woman should have anticipated that at some point her religious observance would conflict with the real world and come up with a game plan for handling problems when they arose. Apparently, her game plan was to throw her job under the bus the moment it came into conflict with her religious beliefs. How is that fair to the clients or the people she worked for?

 

I have spent most of my working life interviewing the public.  I can't remember ever having come across a lip reader.  It is an extremely rare occurrence.

That's not true. As Heather pointed out, there are many people who are hard of hearing who depend on lip reading and you don't realize it until they tell you because you are doing something that prevents them from understanding what you are saying.

 

Your example fails for a number of reasons. I don't know where you work/worked but if you deal with the public then your job is to help the public which includes people who don't speak your language. If you got someone who didn't speak English and refuse to accomodate them in any way and, instead, throw an English dictionary in their face then, yeah, I would say you should probably get another job.

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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on April 22, 2011 at 2:13pm

[like]

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Permalink Reply by Daria Black on April 22, 2011 at 2:53pm

Thanks Heather. You have some awesome replies too :)

Permalink Reply by Arcus on April 22, 2011 at 6:35pm

@Daria: Are you a student of philosophy or argumentation..?

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Permalink Reply by Daria Black on April 22, 2011 at 11:26pm

Neither really. I like reading about philosophy but have never really debated topics until I signed up with Think Atheist. Those atheists. So corrupting...

Permalink Reply by Arcus on April 23, 2011 at 7:14am

Admittedly, I am impressed by and envy your debating skills. :)

Permalink Reply by Daria Black on April 22, 2011 at 11:39pm

TL;DR

 

I thought this conversation was over. Everything you bring up in this rant I've already addressed in other replies and I'm not going to spin on the merry-go-round with you yet again to repeat my arguments especially as you are deliberately trying to twist my words and Judith's words to fit your weak counterarguments. You can do the leg work and read my replies. If you have an other questions, you can pm me.

 

Instead, I'm going to answer my own question and say that you are trolling for an argument. So congratulations, you get to have the last word. Additionally, you have officially derailed the thread.

You win a cookie!

 

Permalink Reply by Arcus on April 23, 2011 at 7:06am

Hopefully Daria will not mind awfully for picking some of the argumentation apart.

|"Daria - what on earth is this obsession with throwing things in |people's faces that's going on her?"

Throwing something in someone's face is a figure of speech, not a descriptive statement. Definition:

throw something in(to) someone's face
1. Lit. to hurl or splash something into someone's face.
Jerry got mad at Bob and threw his drink into Bob's face. He threw the pie in Ken's face.
2. Fig. to confront someone with a problem or criticism.
Jerry caused this mess. I'll just throw the whole problem into his face and tell him to fix it.
It's her fault. Just throw this problem in her face and make her deal with it.

|"The point I was making is that Judith is using her disability as a |get out of jail free card for calling a muslim lady a "shapeless |islamic black dress" "idiot". Not just in the heat of the moment, but |long afterwards and on an internet forum."
To justify the usage of the term "idiot" there must be acts of stupidity involved. What the case worker did was definately an act of stupidity, and she can rightly be called an idiot for that act. But one isolated act does not make someone an idiot, one is not an idiot for life for having driven drunk once, though if one does so on frequent occation the term can accurately be employed. As the caseworker can be expected to react the same in every similar situation, her insistance is therefore an act of stupidity since she works in public administration and has signed the social contract involved to be hired into that bureaucracy. That is, of course, unless you don't subscribe to bureaucracy theory, which makes you an idiot intellectually similar to those who are proponenets of young earth creationism.
In addition, the lady committed an act of stupidity by wearing a long, shapeless black dress. This is the main cause of the grievance and therefore a valid descriptor.

|"Hmm... what do we think? Does the ‘her idiot colleague’ quote |follow on from ‘I refused, pointing out…’?"
She had a valid argument, and if one does not concede to valid arguments you are per definition an idiot.

|"Would it be unreasonable to read this as Judith calling the lady |an idiot to her face?"
Yes, the description of related feelings does not mean one committed the action. If she had stated she wanted to strangle her I could not immediately jump to the conclusion that somewhere in Holland lies a strangled niqab wearing public servant.Most people, including myself, behave differently in a face to face social setting vs the relative anonymity of the internet.

|"Frankly it doesn't matter anyway."
Of course it matters. How she actually acted does have a great impact. If she was screaming insults at the top of her lungs I would agree with you; that is not rational argumentation. But this fact is not in evidence, and the conclusion does not follow, thus the remainder of the paragraph is invalid.

|"I've never seen a naked buttock"
Exactly. There are laws against it. Clothing laws. Kinda like the one we are discussing now.

|" it's never occurred to me to describe this mode of fashion as |'idiotic'."
It has to me. It seems illogical, which is a hallmark of stupidity, and acts of stupidity define an idiot, to wear clothes in a fashion that barely allows you to walk. It is, incidentally, the same reason I find 10 inch heels, corsets, and ties idiotic. Willingly harming yourself or constricting the blood flow cannot be termed as intelligent behavior per se.

|"But even so, I would hesitate to call the kkk idiots"
Why not? Are their arguments and reasoning coherent, valid and based on evidence, or are they just uninformed idiots? Is there general academic congruance support their views?

|"In principle, I object to calling human beings idiots."
Exactly. You are not arguing the facts of the matter, you are just arguing some ideological stance for which there is no evidence. If I object to someone being called vogons, I am not necessarily right.

|"You know exactly what that is like?"
Of course she doesn't. See my first point regarding the difference between figurat and literal speech.

I will stop there (for now).

Permalink Reply by Daria Black on April 23, 2011 at 2:24pm

Arcus, I don't mind at all. Pick away. You have much more patience than I do.

Permalink Reply by Arcus on April 23, 2011 at 5:00pm

"And as you have shown, there is always a literal description associated with it."

No. Either literal or figuratively. I literally want to kill you vs I figuratively want to kill you are two completely different things. The former may be a jailable offense, the latter definately not.

"At some point I will open a separate thread about the differences of language between theists and atheists"

Irrelevant when we both are presumably using the same well of language to tap out of (figuratively speaking), seeing as we are both atheists and should therefore have the same understanding.

"An act of stupidity does not justify use of the term idiot."

Opinion. I agree with the definition of the word:
-a person of subnormal intelligence
As there are, as previously attempted to be shown, no intellectual defence for the caseworkers actions, it is a case of either lacking or subjugated intellect, which, due to having the same effect upon the actions of the perpetrator, defends the usage of the word.

"I would say that the Judith’s description of what happened is very ambiguous."

That may be so, but as we will never be privy to the whole story, we can only work from the evidence provided. You choose to call Judith a liar. I believe her story to be a mostly accurate description of the events. We will not hear the other side of the story, but that does not mean we can go out and construct one. We have to deconstruct the story initially provided.
You latched on to the personal opinion of one person about another, I am more interested in the situational ethics involved. I find the fundamental claims underpinning Judith's actions to be of higher moral fabric than that of the caseworker (as you may have gatherd from my continued willingness to discuss the subject and evidence for this stance is to be found littered within all my previous posts).

"I do not think you or I can tell if she actually called the muslim lady an idiot to her face or just thought it."

Exactly. But claiming that she did is a positive claim which requires positive evidence. My starting position is to make no such claim and I carry no burden of proof.

"I think we can both agree that Judith was not screaming insults at the top of her lungs."

Yes we can. And since we can, not only is the point merely moot, it is actually a dead end.

"since we’re not talking about it."

But we *are* talking about it. And it was you who brought it up in the first place and the rest of us were at that conclusion almost a priori!

"Really though I meant it would not matter to Daria, who berated me for claiming that Judith did not use the word ‘idiot’ at any point when infact she had."

If Daria wish to defend against these statements she may. I do not have too much interest in debating the debate or other participants intents. (Note the use of a qualifier to signify that I am not talking in absolutes.)

"Please elaborate what you mean by ‘exactly’."

Exactly what was previously written and directly quoted without any alteration to the statement as it stood. I may be critiziced for not using your whole quote, but the remainder did not alter the observation they were constructed on and I prefer brevity (believe it or not) over correctness and presume you have the wherewithal to "fill in the blanks" (figuratively) between the deductions I make.

"there are a hell of a lot of people you call idiots, you do seem to be a rather intolerant person."

Calling someone an idiot over an act (or acts) of stupidity is merely verbal labelling following from word definitions. That I have tolerance for other people's rights, doesn't mean I have to support every action they perform. In this case, I don't even find any justification that the person had a right to insist on the use of the niqab in the first place, and I do not support made up rights based on a religious agenda. If it is this (specific fact) which makes me intolerant (in a general sense), then I am indeed intolerant in your eyes.

"Just because something is a figure of speech doesn’t make it an accurate reflection of what happened"

Exactly. And this is why one should not attack the specific choice of words, but rather the underlying right/wrong of the actions we did know took place. Judith's right to think someone is an idiot is clearly protected by freedom of thought, and her right to call someone (within certain parameters) an idiot is clearly protected by freedom of speech.

I think the main point is that we agree that the niqab wearing women has a right to wear her garment in private. However, I do not find wearing niqab in public to be protected by free of religion, nor the freedom of expression, or her right to protest (or anything else). Especially in this situation, where the niqab wearing women was violating the basic underpinnings of the Weberian beuraucracy theory currently used in western civil service.
To use an example, I am ideologically not opposed to selling sex on a voluntary basis. However, in a hypothetical situation where I would be in a society which bans such transactions, I cannot use human rights arguments in my defence as the law of the land takes presedence and my (presumed) free willed decision to stay in that society means I have implicity accepted that I cannot legally purchase sex; my social contract. In essence, I know purchasing sex in the US will most places be a violation of the law, just like selling alcohol in Saudi is, and if I do, I have to accept the consequences. The price of freedom is justice, though what constitutes justice is always under debate.
 

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