Question was inspired by this user from Yahoo, thought I'd get some opinions on this on Think Atheist.

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I'm not suggesting that there is some kind of "cosmic encyclopedia".

I'm suggesting that there is a fourth dimension (at least) of thought. Perhaps more. Music? Pathos? Time? I don't think the world can sufficiently be explained by just the three dimensions of space, and string theory suggests there may possibly be ten such dimensions...


I'm not suggesting that there is some kind of "cosmic encyclopedia".

Of course you are. You're just calling it "a fourth dimension of thought" rather than a "cosmic encyclopedia". Your basic concept is that thought or knowledge exists independently and the brain only accesses it. (How? Telepathy? Radio waves? Morse Code?)

I'm suggesting that there is a fourth dimension (at least) of thought.

Without a single shred of empirical evidence, you might as well be suggesting we play a game of choo-choo train.

Well, you certainly can't prove any of what you speak of to be true, you can only deduce the probabilities of it's likelihood, and even then, I fail to see how you could ever prove your deductions were correct. But if you enjoy pissing into the wind, far be it from me to stop you.

Of course a tree makes a sound when it falls in the forest - the same sonic mechanics that act to create the sound a human hears, don't suddenly cease to operate in his/her absence. As far as this planet is concerned, Man is entirely superfluous.

RE: "Heather Spoonheim suggested that some concepts are too large for a single brain to comprehend" - yes, well that was Heather's fault for offering you something you could sink a hook into, and I suspect she's regretting volunteering same.

I am not actually speaking of anything and have never even stated a position since I have none. Every post I have made has been framed as an honest question. You guys seem to be on some kind of blind theist-hunt. I came here because it said "Fellow Atheists, what is your take on Dualism?" I didn't expect to walk into some kind of monist Inquisition.

So thinking = pissing into the wind? If everyone thought that we'd still be living in caves.

We know sonic mechanics exist. We know abstract ideas exist. Does that make consciousness superfluous to both? Sonic mechanics exist in the physical world. Where do abstract ideas exist?

I said: "I fail to see how you could ever prove your deductions were correct. But if you enjoy pissing into the wind, far be it from me to stop you."

Could you enlighten me as to how your ability to prove your deductions would in any way facilitate or prevent our living in caves? I'd just like to understand how your mind is capable of making such a connection.

You've spent a lot of time throwing around E=MC2 - what would you call that, an abstract idea?

I'm not talking about my deductions per se, I'm talking about thinking in general. It has merit, thinking that is, and is not just 'pissing into the wind'.

Yes I would call E=mc2 an abstract idea. Wouldn't you?


E+MC2, combined, as they one day will be, with yet-to-be discovered principles of quantum mechanics, operated the Universe long before Man permanently leaped down from the trees, and will continue to do so long after the trees themselves are gone. Our "abstract idea," regarding E+MC2, was nothing more than our perception of its effects, much as we derive our concept of what causes wind by watching its effect on the objects around us.

Have you another explanation?

Yes, they operate the universe, but my question is where do they exist? Everything else we perceive exists somewhere. I can see the table. It is there. Where is E=mc2? If E=mc2, what does E+mc2=?

Where does the number 1 or 2 exist? As Sagacious Hawk suggested, and against my better judgment, am reposting this in the philosophy forum under the title "Dualism and Monism - An Atheist Viewpoint". I've tried to order some of the questions I think are appropriate, and hopefully bring some structure to this tangled thread. I just want to state again, AGAIN, that I am not offering answers, since I don't even have a position to argue from. I'm just posing questions I think are interesting. Thanks

Anon, you're confusing the forces with the concepts defining them - the forces exist everywhere, the concepts exist in the minds of Man and possibly other sentient beings throughout the universe.

Yes that is true, but still doesn't resolve the problem of where the pure concepts exist, if no-one is there to see them? The effects of these concepts exist, we can perceive the effects, but everything that we can perceive having an effect, has a place. Where do the pure concepts exist?

Do you think we could possibly move this discussion here? Will add the response you posted since it answers some of the questions I posed. Thanks.

The tree falls, and we both agreed that the sonic particles exist. Where do the pure concepts exist?

Just by asking each other questions and answering each other. We are refining the original question. Beautiful.


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