Jesus on Homosexuality (in response to Heather)
To: Heather as you Requested
A few things here from both OT and NT and just because you cant see the word 'Homosexual' Its pretty easy to work it out ....
This is just a little bit ... I dont have time for more but what more do you need? ....
and really ... I'd like an apology thanks ....
First God:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with ,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God
The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2000. |
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Corinthians |
7 |
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1 |
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. |
2 |
Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. |
3 |
Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. |
4 |
The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. |
5 |
Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. |
6 |
But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. |
7 |
For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. |
8 |
¶ I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. |
9 |
But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. |
10 |
¶ And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: |
11 |
but and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. Mt. 5.32 ; 19.9 · Mk. 10.11, 12 · Lk. 16.18 |
12 |
¶ But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. |
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And the woman which hath a husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. |
14 |
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. |
15 |
But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. |
16 |
For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? |
17 |
¶ But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. |
18 |
Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. |
19 |
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. |
20 |
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. |
21 |
Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. |
22 |
For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. |
23 |
Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. |
24 |
Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God. |
25 |
¶ Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. |
26 |
I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be. |
27 |
Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. |
28 |
But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. |
29 |
But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; |
30 |
and they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; |
31 |
and they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away. |
32 |
¶ But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: |
33 |
but he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. |
34 |
There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. |
35 |
And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction. |
36 |
¶ But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. |
37 |
Nevertheless he that standeth steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. |
38 |
So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better. |
39 |
¶ The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. |
40 |
But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God. |
Genesis 1 (King James Version)
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Now Jesus
1. And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?’” (Matt. 19:4.)
Questions: What did Jesus say about God’s creative work? Did He make Adam and Joseph? Did He create male and male, or did He create male and female? According to this passage, what has been God’s plan for sexual union [one flesh] since the beginning of time? Was His plan for a male partner to be joined to another male partner, or was it for a husband to be united to his wife? According to this passage, is a man to cleave to his male partner, or to his spouse?
Consider: Since Jesus approved of His Father’s plan [i.e., one man, one woman, one flesh,] could we correctly say that Jesus condemned homosexuality?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on -
That is why I prefaced it with the term “nugget”. Granted it may not be a universal term. You then suggest that it is “the same stale argument from way back”. It was not offered as an argument. However I think your O.T. quotations are much older and much staler. Stuck in a time warp? Don’t be so precious. I doubt if you will learn much here. Your ad hominem approach is more typical of a frustrated theist than an Atheist with an open mind. With your attitude I am quite happy not to represent you.
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Permalink Reply by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on -
@Angela - As you say, catholics believe god is jesus, jesus is god, and they also have a ghost in there. The proverbial axis of evil.
They cannot change the laws - A pope, because he is chosen by god, and he talks to god, can change anything he likes, and does so, when it suits.
As kOrsan says, they can twist shit until it fits their agenda,
or simply drop thing out, and not mention them again.
Popes who were married -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes
The pope should be drinking poison, and patting snakes, if he really wants to prove his faith in god. That is in the bible.
And once again, in case you missed it, jesus DID NOT SAY love the person but hate the act - St. Augustine of Hippo said it, albeit re-interpereted, as usual.
Cum diletione hminum et odio vitiorum - 530-430.
With love for mankind and hatred of sins.
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Permalink Reply by Angela Evangelia on
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Suzane your being really naive if you think a Pope can just change doctrines like that.
The new Pope wont change it either because he is staunch. He will keep it the way it is.
and unless you missed it Suzzanne .. Jesus loves everybody too not just Augustine.
and as far as Popes being married in the past well so what? ... that was 1000 years ago or something wasnt it ... I dont get your point .. Its just waffle.
Who are you angry at anyway?
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Permalink Reply by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on
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Ha,ha, not angry, Angela, but being bought up as a catholic, I do know when things were just dropped out of sight by the catholic church.
Naive if you think a Pope can just change doctrines like that. - Nah, not naive, cynical about any pope, and know that this one, as in the recent past, are not staunch, just too old, and been in the system too long, and want to keep in with the other clergy, 'cause if they don't, if they make waves of any sort, they will be excommunicated. This one won't be any different. Which should make it interesting - just more and more people leaving, because they are realizing what hypocrites run the catholic church.
and as far as Popes being married in the past well so what? ... that was 1000 years ago or something wasnt it ... I dont get your point .. Its just waffle. -
that is the point, they can and did change anything that didn't fit in with their lifestyle, 2,000 years ago, 1,000 years ago, doesn't matter, they were popes, and they used to do it, why not now - they don't want to lose their job. Simple really.
They cherry pick, just like theists do - what did you say the reason was the pope doesn't pat snakes and drink poison?
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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on -
Wow, I simply asked you to back up your statement that Jesus said hate the sin but love the sinner, and where exactly he condemned homosexuality.
The short version would to be to cite the "I'm not here to abolish the law but to fulfill it" line - then tie that to leviticus. What you have here, however, is rather embarrassing. First you have a letter from Paul, who, in case you aren't aware, is not Jesus. He is, however, the founder of modern Christianity more so than Jesus was - but not Jesus.
That line from Genesis suggests there is no difference between male and female - for both are in the image of the god. Now sure where you were going with that.
The line from Matthew is a prohibition of divorce - again nothing to do with homosexuality.
Did you think this would 'prove' something? LOL.
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Permalink Reply by Heather Spoonheim on
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Oh, and what exactly would you like me to apologize for? Asking for sources? You can't be serious. This is just a troll, right?
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Permalink Reply by onyango makagutu on -
Heather just apologize for not being able to apologize :-D
And you are doing well goddess, you have a post dedicated to you. One should dedicate one for my great friend kOrsan!
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Permalink Reply by Jorita on -
Well said Korsan. I like your reply. I don't think this platform is here for us to insult each others person,or appearance that is in bad taste and something you see on the playground at school. And yes we cab keep our private issues private by sending each other mail.
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Permalink Reply by Adam on -
Things were said and done, now lets forget about it
We Atheists can't be bickering among ourselves when we got bigger things to worry about. I know we Americans do especially about the recent thing I just learned about Louisiana's public education system is teaching to 8th graders
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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on -
"Since Jesus approved of His Father’s plan [i.e., one man, one woman, one flesh,] could we correctly say that Jesus condemned homosexuality?"
Barely. I think if it had been an issue like it is for modern Christians (ie. don't do it on pain of hell) then Jesus would have mentioned it by name. As it is, from what I know about Jesus, he understood that things that don't cause harm are OK.
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Permalink Reply by Unseen on -
Are you sure they had a "name" for it back then? If so, what was it?
I suspect they had to do with beating around the bush descriptions like "laying with a man as like a woman" or something like that. BTW, that description sounds a little familiar to me. Was it from Paul?
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Permalink Reply by Kris Feenstra on -
That's the approximate phrasing in Leviticus 18:22. I believe some modern versions have added in the word 'homosexuality', but it doesn't seem to be common.
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