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Permalink Reply by Emmy Ellison on October 7, 2010 at 8:18pm

I suppose I could be called a grammar Nazi... =\ lol I guess it's because I feel as though all people are equal, regardless of where they are from, how much or little melanin they have, what their sexual orientation is, what their religion is, etc. So if all people are equal to me, and I had the ability to learn proper grammar, and have the ability to continue to use it... shouldn't everyone else? I went to public school. I didn't have any kind of special education so I don't have a leg up on others.

I like your thoughts better though... rather than feeling like it's a personality flaw I have, that I ache to correct people (though most of the time I only correct them in my mind)... I'd like to blame genetics and my ancestry!

You've given me a lot to think about. =]

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on October 8, 2010 at 12:52pm

Yay! Well, I still often feel like I want to correct people, but I try to understand why it so often feels like an emotional urge, above and beyond "by the way" pedantic. For the record, I appreciate corrections, altho (sic) sometimes I'll bend a rule on purpose. :)

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Permalink Reply by Emmy Ellison on October 8, 2010 at 5:23pm

The only bad grammar I can 100% overlook... is lolcats... and that's just because they are so cute. Hey, English is their second language after all!

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Permalink Reply by Jon Heim on October 8, 2010 at 1:13pm

idk...I think its fine unless you are absolutely, ridiculously horrible to the point were no one can understand you.

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on October 8, 2010 at 5:41pm

Yes, by "strong preference" I mean "picky/personal" preferences, e.g. for specific types of music. But back before music was as we now know it, "music" was just tone/inflection of voice and "attitude" added to verbalizations. (Recent music is more of a wild extension of tone of voice and attitude.) There is also a temporal/serial component (or "style") to both language and music (and dance), which is an attribute of higher intelligence. And then there are mellifluous-sounding and rhyming component analogies, but now I've gone too far ahead of myself.

Good question wrt if the more serious language snobs have pickier musical tastes. It sounds strange on the face of it, but I'd like to look into it. There are (at least) obvious cases of prejudice toward ethnic cultures, including mockery of both their lingo and their music, but that doesn't prove a connection.

In both language snobbery and picky musical preferences we were acting on a strong social need to lead the pack, and/or conform and fit into the pack, depending on one's personality. What language and music (theoretically) share is much of the neurocircuitry responsible for memes used for social communication.

Yes, strength of language rule enforcement & musical tastes vary, just as there is normal phenotypic variation in a species. What matters is that preferences (and even competition among them) exist, so that only a few preferences gain standardization/agreement at large.

I'm trying to expose all of us as natural language snobs, including myself. Btw I've tried to think of a better word than "snob" that would make as much sense. "Nazi" is also a strong word, but it's probably good for SEO (Search Engine Optimization)!

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on October 9, 2010 at 1:15pm

Adriana, I like "maven", thanks. Positive, too. I had thought of "elitist" before (without its negative connotation), but it's hard to ignore its negativism.

Thanks for the links. Still reading. Feeling guilty now about indulging in speculation rather than acting more like a scientist, but that's as it should be. :)

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Permalink Reply by Jon Heim on October 9, 2010 at 2:28pm

This doesn't really relate to you're theory but I really do consider myself a music snob.

As a musician, I have to say I'm sort of a snob because I'm certainly more educated about what goes in to producing music then most people.

For instance, I don't like music that sounds like anyone who knows how to use computer software could make. No matter how catchy it is.

I guess because I play a real instrument and have a certain passion for the tone of vibrating metal and wood.

Let me give an example of a complete fail to me.
I have a friend who goes through hobbies like most people go through changes of cloths.
One day he decided to make his own techno music because he found software and a midi keyboard. This person mind you, had no prior experience with music, didn't know any theory and didn't even understand how pitch works....
well, he fooled around with it for about a month, burnt some samples on some cd's and people actually give him money for them.

Also the lyrics in most rap music...I could certainly live without. I tend not to listen to music about bitches and money.

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on October 20, 2010 at 4:34pm

If you like poetry, I have a question or two for you.

Does rhythm and/or rhyming add to the feeling of profundity and/or beauty? Or, why else is poetry held in such high, literary regard?

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on December 19, 2010 at 12:23am

Just had a thought. (Guess I haven't read enough books where something like this has already been thought of and written about. So TA is now my think pad. Call me lazy!)

 

But first, a preface. I've noticed in chat rooms how people often misspell their, there, your, you're, etc. It happens much more often in spontaneous chat room environments than in other, less spontaneous mediums. I think this is because the written word doesn't come nearly as naturally as speech does in the auditory/vocal medium. It takes months to learn auditory language, but years to learn written language.

 

Also note the spontaneous creativity of chat room spelling, misspelling, and emoticons. (Ha, I already hear some of y'all cringing. But please, sit back and try to observe this from a neo-cultural perspective, or perhaps even in scientific terms of the evolution of human language and communications.)

 

Here's what I'm getting to. We're all familiar with how it's often easy to misunderstand the tone of a writer, especially in emotion-laden discussions. Likewise, it takes more work to add tone to be understood better. So what I'm thinking now is, isn't tone also a musical attribute? Does it seem as obvious to you (as it does to me, at this moment) that the ability to add tone and mood to our audio communications significantly amplifies its effectiveness?

 

Now I have to read and think more about other components of music besides "tone". And I also wonder if "music" in language was once even more important/effective back when we had a tiny, fledgling vocabulary. This is actually the big question I'm asking, and that's why I think it fits in this topic about the evolution/importance of music and other (possibly "built in") rules (and mores?) of communication.

 

(SHOOT! I have not yet read the Singing Neanderthals, as recommended to me earlier.)

 

Also, I don't mean to ignore body/facial language components of communication. But it seems clear that the musical components alone very significantly add meaning to vocalizations, e.g. as when we're talking on the phone, or in some other way blind to the speaker's visual cues. Hmm, now I'm even wondering if someday some of our emoticons could have some kind of short, musical attachment. Or something like that. Miniature facial snapshots of ourselves, for some words?

 

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on December 19, 2010 at 4:47am

Ok, I've read several reviews of The Singing Neanderthals, and get the gist of it. Woohoo, it does look like significant food for thought! Albeit with some speculation, of course, as music and language leave few fossils. Here's the best, informative review I've read, so far.

 

And here are two listings (with reviews) at Amazon for the book:

 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on January 6, 2011 at 6:26pm

Was reading something today and thought "hmm, interesting". But the voice saying it in my head wasn't my own. It was a familiar voice, but I couldn't place it or put a face to it right away. Finally realized a minute later that the voice is the ex-drill sargent psycho-therapist in the Geico commercial.

So I've had this vocal meme in my head, much like a musical earworm. I'll bet they're neurologically related.

Pure speculation, of course.

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on May 6, 2012 at 10:12pm

Previous link no worky. Try this one.

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