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Just because Hitler called himself a left-wing Socialist didn't make him a left-wing Socialist (The translation of the Nazi Party is the National Socialist Party) - he became the opposite : an extreme right-wing Fascist dictator :
"The Nazis, while allying themselves in 1939 with the Ruhr industrialists and smashing the German trade unions and socialist Party, called themselves 'National-Socialists' to dupe the German working class"
(LETTER FROM TOSCO FYVEL TO MARGARET M. GOALBY - 8 JULY 1950 - REGARDING GEORGE ORWELL'S "NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR"
In the same way, just because Hitler called himself a Christian didn't make him a Christian.
He and his Nazi Party said it - I would suggest - to "dupe" the Christian Church into supporting him - helped by Goebbels propaganda.
Its very sad that everyday people and people that had a faith were taken in by Him and did hateful things. Whole governments were taken in by him till he attacked their Allies.
the whole things very sad and crazy.
This is just my opinion and speculation. But I ask the question if he had of taken over the world would he have set himself up as God ?
"God with us"
the whole things very sad and crazy.
This is just my opinion and speculation. But I ask the question if he had of taken over the world would he have set himself up as God ?This (to me) sums up the point of atheism. I wish more theists could take up the movement against evil in religion. But the biggest reason that theists cannot fight evil religion is because most arguments against evil religion would also discredit their own, blessed religion.
It doesn't matter why he did it, only that he did it.
If Christianity was perfect and if the Bible was the word of god, then there would be no way to use it for evil.
Seems rather thoughtless of a big, powerful deity to to leave loopholes like THAT.
Hell, even our feeble-minded lawmakers make sure that dangerous products get warning labels, and we are only stupid humans.
Richard, I think you're missing the point that everyone is trying to make.
Atheists do not believe there is any such thing as a god or gods, or a messiah, or Satan; consequently, we also do not believe there is any such thing as "true" Christian. Does that make sense? It's a completely meaningless stance to take in a place where no one believes any of the things you do.
You feel "true" Christians are set apart from all the others that merely claim to be (say, if their motive is world domination, or if they are serial killers, or if they've cheated on their wife, etc). I feel that humans are all the same, and can generally only be classified on a scale from "good" to "heinous". None are possessed of the devil; none are ordained by God. What they claim as their personal religion doesn't make a huge difference to me. People will use any tool they get their hands on to promote their own agenda, and often times that tool is religion or their own belief. It is quite common for people to project their own feelings into the books they may be reading (such as the Bible) and use it to justify their heinous actions.
We're obviously not going to be able to agree on this point, but Hitler was no more a "true" Christian than you are. There's no such thing. However, he did abide by his own interpretation of Christ's teachings. This doesn't make or break the case for Christianity itself. The point is that religion drives people to causes that are quite insane. Hitler was one of those people, and he was supported by the Catholic church in his endeavors. I don't care if he was a "true" Christian or not because such a person is a mythological being.
I just don't think we can move past this point together. You believe there's something special about people who've accepted Christ as their savior. Fantastic. I disagree. I think they're the same as anyone else, and that's why some who claim to believe the things you do are capable of horrendous things. Others do good in the name of religion, but they're still just people. Because there are good and bad Christians, and good and bad atheist, it drives the point home further still. People are capable of good, no... incredibly sacrificial and awe-inspiring... acts whether they are Christian, Hindu, or atheist. And it's because that person is good... not because someone (like Jesus) is possessing their body.
So, the fact that Hitler claimed to be Christian shouldn't bother you so much, or the fact that we believe he was. You're all just fallible humans like the rest of us. Hitler does not represent YOU; not because he's not a "true" Christian, but because you are a good person and he was not.
Eh where'd say that ?
thats a question by the way
Time out from each other.
I'm not going to boot you both entirely out of the discussion, but I am going to give you both a warning.
No more communication with each other for 24 hours.
Both of you get your head on straight.
Debate the issue, not the person.....
and if you can't do that, then bow out until you can.
24 hours better pass before I see either of you reply to the other.
I think I would move the argument back closer to the theme of this thread, as stated in it's title about how profoundly silly "the likes of Dawkins" appears.
Religion, in general, enables despots to do inflict their evil. This (to me) is a whole lot more serious than just looking "silly".