In a sense, I know that we should respect everybody, but do we really just need to keep quiet when crazy religious people preach and yell and affect law? I personally don't think so. Maybe I am too closed minded, but I think the more vocal the atheist community becomes and LESS vocal the religious community can be the world would be better off...Faith is not based in fact, as everybody knows. So why not publicly denounce all faiths as ignorant and detrimental.
Does anybody else have any thoughts on this?
Considering how many ignorant laws they already pass... do you really want to paint that big of a target on yourself? Right now they see us as "lost" overall and only a few antagonists... If we all start publicly denouncing EVERY religion... how many of us are there compared to them? We are rational and they are not... ever heard of a "crime of passion"? They might just consider it a favor to "send us to our maker".
There have been strides made in that direction and the notion is gaining ground. I have no problem confronting the loonies individually but I am not going to denounce a mob/crowd... I may fully agree that blind faith is a sign of delusional thinking and that those people need help, but I also posit that those people think that we are "blind" to faith and need to be converted. I would also ask this... you expect them to honor and respect your viewpoint and yet you are unwilling to do the same for them? Tolerance of others beliefs is a two way street and unless they are imposing their beliefs on you through some form of force, you should offer the same courtesy.
@Taranach - "...you expect them to honor and respect your viewpoint and yet you are unwilling to do the same for them? Tolerance of others beliefs is a two way street..."
You are completely missing the point. The problem BEGAN with THEIR intolerance and persists with THEIR intolerance. I have said it before and I'll say it again, I don't care what fairy tales you believe, but as soon as you start pushing your delusional superstitions down my throat, THAT is when we have a problem. Atheists have never petitioned to remove the right of anyone to worship or believe as they see fit, so in any regard that matters, we DO "tolerate and respect" them. It is only when THEY decide that they are justified in stripping away liberties and rights away from EVERYONE ELSE that we march against their bullshit. When they try to force feed creationism down our children's throats as "valid" science, as an "alternative" to truth, when they legislate that you must adhere to their delusional superstitions in order to be worthy of holding public office, when we are not allowed to buy a beer because it is THEIR "special" worship day, THAT is when we need to stand up and say "hell, NO!"
I will offer them the exact same tolerance, respect, and courtesy they they show me and when I speak to them, I make that very, very clear: stop shoving your bullshit down our throats and we won't have a problem.
Let me make this perfectly clear... I totally agree with 95% of what you are saying... and you missed my point... THEY STILL OUTNUMBER US!.. Is that any clearer? They have friends in high places and are still managing to push through BS laws because there are far too many that do not seem to care about anything until it directly affects them...
Yes, our numbers are growing, yes, I don't want their views and beliefs shoved down my throat.. but I also must say that we should "appear" (key word there) logical, rational and respectful so that as their views and voices get more strident, everyone else will see these zealots for what they are and perhaps... just perhaps, they will start taking a notice to what these religious fanatics have been sneaking in behind their backs and stand up to them as well.
If we act like they do, we are no better than them in everyone else's eyes... even if everything is perfectly rational and truthful. I lost my job and my house and nearly my kids to the closed minded BS these zealots spew forth. I managed to get out of that town and situation fairly quickly (only two months homeless) but unless you have experienced the same things... have a nice tall glass of mellow juice... you would not believe how nasty they can get while keeping everything "perfectly legal".
@Taranach - "... I also must say that we should "appear" (key word there) logical, rational and respectful..."
I couldn't agree more, Taranach. I believe that it's almost impossible to convert a theist (most especially if they are being irrational) during an online conversation. I believe that the conversations that we have are really more for the audience than for the participants. I've seen a lot of posts from people who say that they have researched atheism and they have been convinced to rational thought based on the conversations that they have seen. I think it's very important to stay on subject, don't let the other side drag you into emotionally based arguments (you will NEVER win an emotionally based argument with a theist - that's where they live) and sticking to dealing with the actual subject and not being drawn into straw-man arguments shows our audience that we promote (by example) rational, reasonable thinking.
I've VERY sorry to hear about your situation. I know how frustrating it is when people use the system to attack with no validity at all. I, personally, just spent 5 years and about $70k keeping the local sheriff's office from railroading me for actually *helping* someone who was about to be kicked out on the street and lose everything he had, believe it or not, by the very county that attacked me! As far as I know, there was no religiosity involved, but they were still being just as self-righteous and malicious. I hope you are in a much better place now! :)
Not really, but I AM noticing a subtle change, at least among many who have recently visited this site - they claim to agree with us regarding the old Pentateuch myths, but continue to maintain that the subsequent myths are true.
Well, we all tend to mellow with time, and 2100 years can certainly do that to you. After all, look at the personality changes their god underwent, from the vengeful, wrathful, "kill 'em all and let ME sort 'em out" god of the OT, to the "for god so loved the world" god who sends his son down to be tortured and crucified to save us from the sin of violating rules that he, himself, made in the first place.
Like any other human conflict, the closer a person is, the more tolerant they will be. My 2 best friends (who I consider bothers), and my 2 closest friends at work are all VERY religious. And even though we have touched on the subject, for the most part we just agree to disagree and don't really discuss it. They have never treated me with anything other than the utmost respect.
My problem is with the xians that don't have to face us in order to screw us. Even the crazy-assed freaks like Terry Jones aren't as bad because at least it's clear that they are overtly delusional and it's easy for people to see how nuts these people are. It's the subtle ones, the ones that hide behind a cloak of self-righteousness and pretend "reason", claim that they are the "victims" of same-sex marriage and that if a woman was "righteous", she wouldn't need birth control. They only care about the constitution when THEIR rights are being infringed, and screw the people that they don't "approve" of. But they do it in a very passive-aggressive way, through legislation rather than using a frontal assault, like our buddy Terry does.
And even though at least a couple of the 4 I mentioned at the beginning of this post fall into this category, and, trust me, if the subject of religion infringing on other people's freedoms comes up, I will and have definitely clearly voiced my opinion about their delusional superstition, I still prefer to let sleeping dogs lie for the most part and mainly confront people either over the internet or, if I am so lucky, those poor unfortunate souls that find the horror of confronting a knowledgeable person when they knock on a stranger's door to "spread the word". I also have no qualms about explaining to xian groups (like Salvation Army beggars at xmas time, Boy Scout beggars, or church groups begging outside of stores) exactly why I refuse to contribute to their destruction of society.
The only objection I have to your comment, Keith, would lie with, "like Salvation Army beggars at xmas time" - what you may not know, is that the majority of those "Salvation Army beggars" are actually recruited from among the homeless, staying at Salvation Army shelters. I have my own issues with the Salvation Army, but it's their leaders, not the disadvantaged poor who do their begging for them, who are at fault.
RE: "if a woman was 'righteous', she wouldn't need birth control" - for entertainment purposes, I suggest you research the life of "Thecla," according to legend, a companion of Paul, who was actually married, then visited by the resurrected "Jesus," who sat with her on her marriage bed and advised her on the evils of sex. She then had her marriage annulled and devoted her life to chastity.
That's a life?
@Keith Pinster I do think the Salvation Army puts it's money where it's mouth is - they lead an austere lifestyle, uniform, no fancy clothes, ordinary houses, no mansions, no fancy cars, no huge churches. In Australia, they are the ones who have soup kitchens, pick up the homeless from the street. They have respect for the poor, and will ask any questions one might have for them - other than why are you a xian? They are paid a miniscule wage. They are the only xian group that I support.
Codie L Miller 'if a woman was 'righteous', she wouldn't need birth control' - What the? in catholic countries especially, the men not only will not go against church doctrine of not using any method of birth control, they think it is their right as the husband not to use plastic coverings. For an under age girl, most of the time, she has no idea what she is doing, but wants to be popular, or just please this boy of the moment. It is always lack of knowledge that gets girls into trouble. She would not have a clue about the testosterone drive of the average male, and that he would bonk anything that moved. I will agree that once a girl has an abortion, then gets pregnant again, she has to be thick. The average female body cannot have 10-11-12 children, without major damage to the mothers body, therefore each succeeding child has less chance of survival. Women in third world countries, where most of the abortions occur, the mother will have an abortion, or self abort, because she just cannot feed another child. Nothing to do with 'righteous or not'.
And as Archy suggests read the life of Thecla.
@SOH - Re: the Salvation Army - this goes back to the discussion about how something as nefarious and socially destructive as religion can survive in our age of enlightenment. Did you know that the Salvation Army actively supports the ban on gay marriage? Did you know that it actively supports removing a woman's right to control her own body? Is this organization completely and totally evil? Of course not. But when they use the poor as leverage to force their (incorrectly interpreted) delusional superstitions into legislation, I think it's safe to say they are certainly anti-American. Every organization has it's good side and it's bad, but I simply refuse to support organizations that are so self-righteous that they feel justified in stripping away the civil liberties of people simply because they are left-handed.
The Boy Scouts are in a similar situation, in my view. They are a great organization for promoting team work, education, and some very good values. The fact that they actively discriminate against left-handed people (or was it some other nature of people that they actively promote hatred for? I forget now...), in my book, makes them intolerant and not worthy of any support.
As for the issue of birth control, you are correct, it is a matter of education. And that is why the Church dissuades education and actively promotes ignorance. Heck, all of the issues of religion can be boiled down to education. If we were all educated and clear minded enough, religion would evaporate. And there wouldn't be hundreds of thousands of people dying from STDs, plague, famine, starvation, bad drinking water, and all sort of other things that can easily be prevented in the world. Remember, it's NOT just about destroying a single woman's body - it's also about stopping the spread of disease and reducing the world population to prevent long, lingering, horrible death with no reasonable justification.
'And that is why the Church dissuades education and actively promotes ignorance. Heck, all of the issues of religion can be boiled down to education. If we were all educated and clear minded enough, religion would evaporate.'
Sadly, there are very active college campus theist groups. 'Evaporation', might be more for solvents, not theists.
'And there wouldn't be hundreds of thousands of people dying from STDs, plague, famine, starvation, bad drinking water, and all sort of other things that can easily be prevented in the world.'
Sadly, well educated people can be heavy drug users, or not have resources to change their lives. I have known my share of educated folks that have no clue about basic sanitation, or nutrition. How folks used their education can be a real issue, and education/knowledge can be heavily compartmentalized.