Catholics teach that the fear of god is a gift from the holy spirit.

Fear = Wisdom? Really?

I used to fear GOD. It was real to me and a constant source of stress. Perhaps when atheists speak of new found freedom, some of it is really the shedding of fear. Did you ever "FEAR the LORD? and if so, how did it feel to ditch that fear?

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What's wrong with it , excluding the imaginary aspect , Mercedes , is that it becomes the very definition of an abusive , sadomasochistic relationship . Having a fear of the one you love is not healthy , nor is it nurturing . That type of relationship is diseased , and is at the core of why religious people are at times capable of astonishing barbarism and cruelty .

But we fear God because he's all powerful. He can do anything he wants to do and we are his creation so we are subject to him. that why we should fear his wrath. but he's loving too. Jesus died for us so we can have grace and be forgiven so now we dont need to fear him anymore.

Fearing someone because they're strong enough to do whatever they want to you is pretty much a solid example of an abusive relationship.

"Do what I say or I will hurt you." How is that healthy?

You only believe that crap because it was fed to you by your parents. Did you ever stop to consider that if you were born in India, Japan, or Iran you'd be spouting different nonsense? Religion is largely based on geography. You end up believing what people around you tell you to believe.

Get some "balls" and think for yourself.

All knowledge is socially mediated, don't you think?

If you grew up elsewhere, @Unseen, you no doubt would believe something else.

Does it necessarily follow that what you believe right now is wrong?  Or that right now you're not thinking for yourself?

So, maybe only 2/3 of the world is wrong, because your 1/3 may be right?

(btw, I'm speaking of 1/3 of our world as Christian.)

Sure! 

I expect that two thirds of the world believes in "traditional" medicine instead of modern scientific medicine. 

Does that mean that modern scientific medicine isn't right?

The number of atheists worldwide is much less than a third, but I think it's perfectly legitimate to consider the possibility that the atheists might be right!

But we fear God because he's all powerful. He can do anything he wants to do and we are his creation so we are subject to him. that why we should fear his wrath. but he's loving too. Jesus died for us so we can have grace and be forgiven so now we dont need to fear him anymore.

Yeah, yeah. I've heard it all before, Mercedes. I know how it goes.

You say God exists. I ask for evidence. You have none. So I don't believe you.

The rest that comes after it-- sin, human sacrifice, forgiveness, eternal torture in hell, the problem of evil, yadda yadda-- is academic. You never make it past step one: God.

Should we refer her to the "Debunking the Bible" thread that that one theist guy started?

But we fear God because he's all powerful.

Is he now? Can god microwave a burrito so hot that he can't eat it?

He can do anything he wants to do and we are his creation so we are subject to him.

Again, you need to provide evidence that your particular god exists, and then you still need to provide solid reason why we should subject to him. You are the creation of your parents, do you kneel, bow, and grovel at their feet? Do you blindly obey every word they say? I don't think so.

If we are not okay with regular slavery, why should divine slavery be any different?

that why we should fear his wrath. but he's loving too.

That is the worst definition of love I have ever heard.
I love you, but you should be terrified of me...but love me. How does that make sense? How can you love something that demands your love and fear.
Forced love is mental abuse. If you wish, god's way of love is mental rape. He forces his love on you, whether you want it or not, and punishes you if you refuse it. Replace the word love with "dick" and you have rape.

Jesus died for us so we can have grace and be forgiven so now we dont need to fear him anymore.

So, god, who created the original sin, all knowing, all powerful, allowed us to fall, then he got mad because we did something he knew we would do all along. Then he created a place to punish us for a crime he knew we would commit but did nothing to stop it. Then he sent himself to be sacrificed to himself, so he can convince himself to forgive us for a crime he created, a crime he allowed us to commit, and from a place of torture that he created to send us for that crime.

What kind of loving god does any of that nonsense?! Why not just forgive? If he is loving, why go through with all this torture and misery? Why not just say "Hey folks, I fucked up. I created you without any intelligence and you didn't know any better when I told you not to eat the fruit... Sorry, all is forgiven, here, come back to the garden, there will be punch and pie for everybody. Oh, also, hey snakes! Here are your legs back. I realized that I knew all along that Satan was disguised as a snake, that it wasn't really one of you who tricked the idiot humans... I was just so angry at my omnipotent lack of foresight and I wrongly took it out on you guys. Forgive me?"

See, much better solution. No need for torture, damnation, bloodshed or human sacrifice.

God is like a mafia boss.
He walks into your china shop with a baseball bat and says, "Hey, you have some really nice stuff... Would be a shame if something happened to it. Here's how it will be. You give me 10% of your income, do what I tell you, and I'll make sure you nothing happens to that pretty family of yours when I come back here to settle some scores."

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