This is a very interesting dichotomy proposed by our friend Professor Dawkins and brings to mind the whole, lesser of two evils argument. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.


This post is from the discussion section of the Richard Dawkins Foundations for Reason and Science's discussion section. The link to the site is here.

Support Christian missions in Africa? No, but . . .

Given that Islam is such an unmitigated evil, and looking at the map supplied by this Christian site, should we be supporting Christian missions in Africa? My answer is still no, but I thought it was worth raising the question. Given that atheism hasn't any chance in Africa for the foreseeable future, could our enemy's enemy be our friend?


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European governments are very careful in letting statistics regarding the issue with multiculturalism slip due to the almost rascist overreactions that immediately follows. It is the water cooler talk of Europe. But there is only one sect which condones genital mutilation and sharia law.

There are a few things which feed into eachother: Religion restricts education/possibilities, restricted education restricts options further, and the religion becomes a crutch.

Speaking on average: poor people committ more violent crimes, more muslims are poor, muslims committ more crimes. Reducing the mosque's influence is in the best interest of everyone.

What are you muttering about here?

An even handed approach to the issue. 

By analogy, not like Fox News Fukushima coverage, it has to be presented like a BBC documentary. 15 minute opinion pieces can't possibly explain the complexities of multiculturalism. At least that's my approach.

@Robert: You know it's bad when you entertain the thought of sending Europeans to fix Africa... again. ;)

"No, I would rather die fighting for my ideas than to roll over in fear and cowardice to these bullies."

You've had this conviction put to the test?


Actually yes.  I didn't want to bring this up but since you asked: In college, some years back, I got into a heated argument with a 'moderate muslim' about science and evolution. To put a long story short he said  he would  "send me to hell" for  "spreading evolution" and I quote, for "spreading filthy lies" He said his local Iman told him to keep on my back. So I said bring it on. We got into a couple of fights and shouting matches over the next few weeks, the police were involved and he was kicked out of school.


But now do you see why I am like this?

Because you are making broad generalizations about a segment of the population based on your bad experience with one member of that segment?

I think this story is quite common - I certainly have my own.

Bullies might be bullies, but some religious bullies don't have anyone that stop them. But I don't think rhetoric will solve the issue alone. Regulating the speech from mosques and imams might help more.

Fuck no.

I will personally lend no hand to anyone who seeks to further their religion.

Religion is the worlds' vice.


Why support either? I'd say lets start teaching the bastards so they know what idiots they're acting like now.  A substantial increase in knowledge and understanding led to a substantial decrease in religion in the west and also in the far east (china, japan); so we know what to do to make this possible.  All we really need to do is to light another torch and pass it to the areas that need it, and I think the missionaries of different religions have found the most effective method of doing this; by starting schools, especially undergraduate or graduate schools, which are cheap and useful for the students to attend (and certainly more useful than the Christian/religious schools of the same caliber, which teach theology and offer absolutely no prospects for any career other than starting a church or being a missionary and flat-out asking people for money based on that).  Further, the missionaries (especially christian missionaries) are handing our asses to us on a platter by literally creating literacy in entire people groups from nothing; the most hardcore types of missionaries literally go and live with a group of people for many years, learn the local language to native fluency, and then translate the bible into that language for that people group.  This is something we should be doing, but with books that actually give knowledge that can improve the life of these people!

I strongly agree...taking sides will be a step backward. But then I'm mindful that when two elephant bulls fight, it's the grass underfoot that suffers the most and in this case we could be the grass as the common enemy to the religionists. Educate and liberalize the people and in addition, use secular arguments to ringfence religious education and if possible ban it altogether.
There is no "purpose" to our existance. Human evolution just happened and has turned out horribly wrong. Our dominance will be our downfall and It should be allowed to take its natural course,  probably  eliminating man from living creatures.  The earth will remain and  a million years from now another creature will emerge from the sea depths, draw a breath and start another cycle.

There is no "purpose" to our existance. Human evolution just happened and has turned out horribly wrong. Our dominance will be our downfall and It should be allowed to take its natural course, probably eliminating man from living creatures. The earth will remain and a million years from now another creature will emerge from the sea depths, draw a breath and start another cycle.


As a species, survival is our purpose. Individually, it's whatever we make it. How did it turn out horribly wrong? Aren't we lucky to be alive at all? I think this is a woefully pessimistec view to take and it's the kind of thing theists use as ammunition against us.


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