Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by jam on November 24, 2009 at 9:34am

I think this is something that every child asks. I asked this before, i was around seven years old.
Yeah, right. It's really mysterious. What answer did I got? "God is beyong your imagination,
it is something that cannot be 'shrink' and 'understood' by our finite minds...
He has no end, no beginning..."
Just as how we cannot really imagine the deep side of quantum physics, that may relate to 'other' dimensions and all...
I'm not an atheist but my religion actually encourages us to "search for the truth".
Knowing that something 'created' us, he must be 'something' that is limitless, 'ever-mysterious', beyond us... Hmmm...
Till now, I'm still searching for truth..
;-).

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Permalink Reply by Nelson on November 24, 2009 at 10:50am

it's clear that instead of searching for the truth you've swallowed completely the wholesale silliness of religion-- you admit to asking skeptical questions but then tell us that you accept as an answer to those questions a response that amounts to "we have no idea! it's a mystery."

why believe in it at all?

there's no religion that encourages a search for truth jam. to assert otherwise is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst; religion stands against a search for the truth insofar as it claims to be the truth. religion teaches people to be satisfied with ignorance. it is a replacement for the search for truth. the search for truth has always come at the expense of religious orthodoxy.

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Permalink Reply by Dave G on November 24, 2009 at 10:57am

Jam,

Why do you assume that something created us? You claim to know it, but what evidence do you have that supports your claim?

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Permalink Reply by Gaytor on November 25, 2009 at 2:08pm

To hamstring science with the need for empirical evidence, then purport that God has always existed with an absence of evidence, is not an equitable argument. To suggest that he is "beyond our imagination" is to give up the search.

As Dave is aptly putting forth, what says that the assertion there is a creator means that the creator is of your faith? Intelligent Design started by claiming it was the Christian god. 15 years later, ID is "agnostic" as to the nature of god. It doesn't matter what religion you have, the likelihood is the creator is not the one of your religion. Why would a creature so enlightened want to create possibly trillions of planets, possibly a multi-verse, just to sit back and watch us appease him for billions of years?

The "truth", in terms of religion, is only relevant and meaningful if you respect the leader. All of the leaders that I have respected have sought to bring us together, and not drive us apart. If at the end of seeking we find a creator ( I don't expect it in my lifetime), I will hold him to a standard as high as I hold human leaders to. I don't know of a god that meets my standards.
. If one exists, fine. If one doesn't, fine. "Seeking Truth" within a box (being religion) because you know it's there, is like searching for your Physics Formula's in your Philosophy Books, because you know it's there. Use the right tool for the job.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on November 25, 2009 at 3:14pm

There are infinitely many ways that the universe can exist, there is only one way it cannot exist. It's just the odds, dude!

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Permalink Reply by Dave G on November 25, 2009 at 3:45pm

True, doone. There are a great many ways that the universe could not exist, and a great many that it could.

Now, a universe existing where life as we know it could develop, that's a smaller subset of possible universes.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on November 25, 2009 at 4:27pm

Dave: how many variations of NOTHING can you describe?

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Permalink Reply by Dave G on November 25, 2009 at 4:40pm

You're talking end result, doone and I are talking reasons. No universe because of X, Y, Z, etc.

There are many ways that I can get from my house to my workplace. Car, bike, walk, bus, dog sled (okay, maybe not dog sled), all ending with the result that I am at work. When you said 'only one way', that implied only one 'way' to end up with no universe.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on November 25, 2009 at 4:52pm

No matter how you get there, it's only ever gonna be nothing, no less, no more. Check out "empty set" or "null set". If there is no universe, there is no way to get there. How can you have no universe and say you arrived at that from some place else, there is nowhere else, there is nothing. All the ways you might imagine nothing coming into non-existence is irrelevant and only exists as a concept in the mind of a sentient being who lives in a universe that does exist.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on November 25, 2009 at 5:12pm

Now, if this really is a multiverse, is it possible that one of them is a universe that doesn't exist? Seems to be self negating to me.

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Permalink Reply by Dave G on November 26, 2009 at 1:18pm

If ways are irrelevant, then why did you say "there is only one way it cannot exist"

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Permalink Reply by Doug Reardon on November 26, 2009 at 1:57pm

You have to be in a universe to imagine ways in which one does not exist. If there is no universe, then there is no way for anthing to be imagined. I think you and Doone both posit some form of existence from which you think a non existing universe evolves or devolves, but if there is no universe how can anything exist? I'm trying to understand, it just does not compute.

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