I’d like to burn some very typical straw men. Hopefully, in the debate over Christianity, these unnecessary issues can be avoided.

Creation  - Neither Genesis nor any of the scriptures demands that the earth and universe is only 6- to 10- thousand years old. The Hebrew word for “day” (yom) could mean long periods of time. The words  “there was morning and there was evening, the first day” could be translated “there was beginning and ending, the first (yom)”.

(BTW, the narrative moves to the surface of the earth in Genesis 1:2. While stars were certainly already in existence, their light was not visible on the surface of the earth until the opaque early atmosphere cleared).

Adam and Eve – While scripture does indicate they were specially created, there are gaps in the biblical genealogies that could place Adam and Eve back 60- to 90-thousand years. This would also predict increasing discovery of a common DNA originating between east Africa and the Mesopotamia.

(BTW, the word for “rib” means “side”. The story of Eve’s creation could mean God created her from Adam for symbolic purposes. I speculate a biopsy, of sorts, from the side, with a few million variations to the DNA producing a female. )

Talking Snakes - A boa constrictor with vocal cords is not in view here. That image comes largely from medieval art. The “serpent” in the garden was intelligent and used for evil. One can only speculate what sort of being it was (perhaps one no longer extant).

The Flood – The fact that a great flood is found in various cultures indicates that it happened. Two questions emerge:  which account is most accurate and whether the flood was global or local.

I’m of the opinion that the flood was regional rather than global for several reasons. First, while the flood was universal in effect, it was only regional in extent due to human’s not having moved much beyond the Mesopotamia at the time. A global flood was unnecessary.

Secondly, language like “under all the heavens”, “all the earth”, etc. are most likely from the perspective of the observer, i.e. a flood from horizon to horizon. “Mountains” could be translated “hills” with rain and water “covering” (or running over) them rather than submerging them.

Thirdly, this would mean there were not polar bears and penguins, etc. on the ark, but only animals indigenous to the region and of special relation to man.

Fourthly, a global flood would have torn the ark to pieces, no matter how well built. And it certainly would not have landed anywhere near its original location.

Fifthly, the scripture itself said a “large wind” was used in the evaporation process. Such a wind would have virtually no effect in a global flood.

Finally, if the flood were only regional why not just have Noah, his family, and whatever animals needed, hike out of the area and be safe? Why a big specifically-built ark? I think because God often operates via symbols teaching important truths or significance, i.e. salvation in Christ or deliverance through troubled waters (trials).

Use of Metaphor – The scriptures use metaphor and other literary devices. One need only utilize common exegetical analysis and context to determine what any author meant as literal or metaphorical (and on a case-by-case basis).

Inerrancy – If there are consequential or factual errors in the Bible  that does not mean Christianity is false. However, I find it remarkable how well the Bible holds up to scrutiny and that there are plausible answers to discrepancies. Personally, I hold to the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy.  

Hell – is not a place of torture (external) but of torment (internal). There are many descriptions of hell in the scriptures. The “fire” is most likely not the chemical combustion we’re familiar with. It, combined with all the other descriptions, reduces to separation from God and the judgment of God.

This does not make hell more tolerable (that’s not possible). But it does dispel hillbilly theology that has poor souls swatting flames for eternity! Christ depicted conversation taking place “in the flames”. No person could have a conversation while on fire! On our familiar planet, one is in mindless torture if burning.

It is, however, a profound tragedy to be eternally separated from God. It is a “spiritual chaos” one enters when the intact “self” survives the physical body.  There are indications that some kind of body could exist in hell.

Heaven – is a remarkably physical place. It is not ethereal or immaterial. It is a combination of a “new heaven and new earth”. We will live on earth in physical bodies that are “spiritual” which nonetheless have access to one another and continued exploration of the universe without many of the limits of current bodies affected by entropy, etc. Christ’s resurrected body could be touched and he ate food, etc. This describes the redeemed, resurrected body.

This is not to be confused with an intermediary state which is not physical. At death, one goes either into the very presence of God to await the resurrection of the body, or in a state of chaos to await final judgment.

“God will not allow anything to happen in your life that you can’t handle” – False! Scripturally, there are plenty of things that happen that one cannot handle! Devastating things! The accurate teaching is that nothing will happen that God’s grace will not get one through.

“You must become like children”  - Christ said to “humble yourself like a little child”. It does not mean to be naïve, ignorant, gullible, or irrational.

Pascal’s Wager This is not an argument for God nor necessarily addressed to atheists. Pascal used a popular gambling motif to shake the French laity out of spiritual complacency and to at least move them in the direction of God.

Further, the Wager, as it is commonly used, is not allowed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. He said if Christ was not risen, then the jig is up! Christianity is false! He did not say believe it anyway “just in case” or because it provides a positive way of life.

I hope these internal considerations provide food for thought.

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@Kevin - re: "what about the notion of Christ being sinless and therefore an adequate channel of God's grace?"

The nature of the 'sacrificee' doesn't answer the problem of the atonement argument John laid out. If a penalty is to be paid for a crime, shouldn't the person who committed the crime pay the penalty? Otherwise, what purpose is served by having a penalty?

How is justice done by letting a rapist go free just because someone else was willing to go to jail? Justice is thrown out the window and the whole point of a penalty is lost when someone else pays. It doesn't matter if the substitute was a peach, or a pig (literally or figuratively), willing or unwilling, divine or human. 

Karen the part of my argument that I think is the strongest, isn't about Jesus at all though.  It is this:

It is as simple as those people are either supposed to be going to heaven, or they are supposed to be going to hell.  Justice reflects what is supposed to be.  

Salvation would be a major deception then.  Because anyone "saved" wasn't supposed to be going to hell in the first place.  And if the claim was that they were, the the law sending them there would be flawed, because perfect justice only dishes out what is supposed to happen.

What salvation essentially says is "God knew it was not right for certain people to go to hell for whatever reason, so he made a way that people could get out of it".  When something isn't right, justice makes it right.  That is what justice does.

Not only that, but 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God wants all to be saved.  If a deity is perfect, his desire would be only for what is right, not some imperfect desire for what is not supposed to happen.  So that suggests that there is a darn good reason why it is best that everyone is saved.  Perfect justice would reflect that.

Question John - bear in mind, I'm not trying to put all of the research on you while I sit back and eat chocolate bon-bons, but neither do I want to spend the day pouring through scripture in search of that which you may well have stored in your head.

Early in the OT, there is no mention of an afterlife, and certainly no hell - when did that concept first appear?

The problem has to do with the word sheol.  It really did mean abode of the dead, so when you read "grave", it is often referring to the afterlife.  But the Hebrew concept of the afterlife was just simply the Canaanite concept of the afterlife.  

You see a part of that in 1 Samuel in which Saul pulls up the spirit of Samuel through using witchcraft.  People who were dead weren't quite conscious, as I remember it, the use of blood was for the purpose of giving them enough substance to have consciousness.

As far as I remember, the first instance of ressurection and hell are in Zechariah.

Relating to: "People who were dead weren't quite conscious, as I remember it, the use of blood was for the purpose of giving them enough substance to have consciousness."

You can understand this together with what is known today about both substance and consciousness. There is life that exists as you are described here and they do not know that they exist that way coming back and forth from what is a holding tank where life has no awareness. The life of consciousness is repositioned again and again to an area that is an always whole "basket" so to write.

The substance that supports a consciousness that is separated that will be reformed or repositioned that you are calling blood is really more akin to a non interesting sugar liquid (like maple when it is truly simple syrup you love). This life is life that is doing something different in all places very similar to the tissue that exists within what is genetic engineering of human parts as well as food sources. There is nothing they can continue to do and they are not alive in the same way as other life even while they can see other life and other life can see them when it is necessary toward causing a needed change.

Hell is really an area that life is placed in when they are not allowed to understand anything to them and it is never permanent with this life serving as containers for the repositioning of separated circumstances (consciousness, human  being attention spans that are experiencing hatred which is movement by way of liquid hydrogen and fusion (integration) with non united nervous system information rendered no longer acceptable within what is able to be understandable at an area of existence).

The only thing that is stored in the "head" is 1) useless information placed as sticky plaques and resistance and 2) information that is necessary for you to use that you have not yet in order to move out of integration with human beings and separation from God as God is always known.

Do you mind changing the channel?

I believe that both the Cannanites, who were largely descendants of Akkadians, and the Jews, who I believe descended from Assyrians, both received their afterlife concepts from the Egyptians, who, over time, occupied the Levant militarily several times. There's a good possibility that the concept of "Satan" arose from the evil Egyptian god, "Set," - who was to Horus, as "Loki" to "Thor" - whose name, combined with the Summerian/Akkadian word for "Lord," was, "En," giving us, "Set-en."

I also suspect that we get our English word, "jail," from that early Hebrew word, "Sheol," but that's strictly opinion.

My entire point of the question, was just when was this rule passed, for which you feel justice, rather than forgiveness (via JC sacrifice), came about as something that absolutely (religiously speaking) must be done, as opposed to kinda, sorta, maybe, ought to be done?

I mean, JC allegedly said, "The wages of sin is death --"

Speaking of witchcraft, doesn't Leviticus tell us we must not allow a witch to live? How did Saul manage to slip through airport security?

Crap I posted in the wrong spot and I didn't copy it right.  Anyway, that whole wages of sin is death thing came only from Christianity.  Though being all-just is something that is attributed to YHWH in the post-exilic period.

Anyway, the passage is funny because Saul was airport security, and the witch was freaked out.

Dear Folks:

I watched the documentary again by the title 'The Most Hated Family in America', concerning the picketing by the Westboro Baptist Church.

Listening to the message promoted by the church, reminds me of some of the conversations here, the message promoted by the Occupy Movement, skin head/neo-nazi groups, etc. It seems that a similar content of mistrust, hate, closed mindedness, has been promoted by many groups, this does not seem to be a deep insight.

A major part of the reason I dislike much of the conversation here, is that we seem to recycle a script, which to me has become old and tiresome.

The mc in the documentary attempted conversation with many members of the church, to a similar result as here. Being taped, I expect, helped to maintain the polarization.


Relating to: "A major part of the reason I dislike much of the conversation here, is that we seem to recycle a script, which to me has become old and tiresome."

This is an altruistic understanding. There is no lower place to go within what is separation and in the place you are referring to where the scrips are the same while having a different presentation (or manisfestation) there is no new information. It is good to experience an interest in what is provided as images and communication of knowing where it is placed as interesting and continuable.

The Westboro Church is purposeful for terrorizing (giving and telling what is not continuable and not set to an experience of truth) what is useful out of their living area and once that life (human and non human) is gone, if they can understand to remain in that script, then they will forever in an area of the universe that is part of the environment purposeful for change (pressure and rupture). Change is necessary within what is the whole knowing of the universe having united positions and divided locations in order to "activate" as interesting additional activity and communication that is known about complete at unity. Westboro Church is one presentation of life that terrorizes themselves in a way that they do not understand until they are moved out of the area of separation. Life that understands a united conduction to move out is caused to know how they exist at unity with the activity life they understood to hate. Hatred is an someone doing something that you love to see and do very much when it is understood to whole truth (knowledge) relating to what is always in existence and happenning.

I just figured that there might be a parallel between 'word salud' and 'deep wisdom'. The comment: "high technology, having the appearance of magic', might be similar.

A sentence might make sense textually, but on unpacking seem meaningless. Many theist compositions seem to have this characteristic.

I hope I am making sense, can I tell?

The term 'convoluted troll' seems a little mean. If Wholely would take each thought, treat it as a small thing first, embellish slowly, and offer it as a flowering of his deep wisdom, so us mere mortals can understand, I would be much pleased.

If I have to read his material like badly edited Aristotle's class notes, I will throw up my hands because of my inability to 'decode'. If his writings are more like algebra, but without following even the most nieve 'well formed formula' rules, then we can forgive ourselves for 'throwing up our hands'. Sadly, I only have one life, understanding on my first read would show some kindness to my memory...  



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