I just wanted to see what peoples thoughts were about. Is there a correlation between climate change skeptics and those with religious beliefs?

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More Peer-Reviewed Studies Contradict Global Warming Alarmism

Environment & Climate News > August 2008
Environment > Climate: Consensus
Environment > Climate: Realists
Environment > Climate: Science
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Written By: Peter Risdon
Published In: Environment & Climate News > August 2008
Publication date: 08/01/2008
Publisher: The Heartland Institute
Despite what many global warming alarmists assert in the media, there are many articles in the world's leading science publications contradicting the assertion that "the debate is over" about global warming. These articles destroy the illusion that there is a "consensus" among scientists about the causes of global warming. The following is the second of a three-part list of many such articles. Compiled by Peter Risdon.
'Hockey Stick'

Proxy climatic and environmental changes of the past 1000 years (Climate Research, vol. 23, 89–110, January 2003) - Willie Soon, Sallie Baliunas

Corrections to the Mann et al. (1998) Proxy Data Base and Northern Hemisphere Average Temperature Series (Energy & Environment, vol. 14, no. 6, pp. 751-771, November 2003) - Stephen McIntyre, Ross McKitrick

The M&M Critique of the MBH98 Northern Hemisphere Climate Index: Update and Implications (Energy & Environment, vol. 16, no. 1, pp. 69-100, January 2005) - Stephen McIntyre, Ross McKitrick

Hockey sticks, principal components, and spurious significance (Geophysical Research Letters, vol. 32, February 2005) - Stephen McIntyre, Ross McKitrick

Reply to comment by Huybers on "Hockey sticks, principal components, and spurious significance" (Geophysical Research Letters, vol. 32, October 2005) - Stephen McIntyre, Ross McKitrick

Reply to comment by von Storch and Zorita on "Hockey sticks, principal components, and spurious significance" (Geophysical Research Letters, vol. 32, October 2005) - Stephen McIntyre, Ross McKitrick

Highly variable Northern Hemisphere temperatures reconstructed from low- and high-resolution proxy data (Nature 433, 613-617, February 2005) - Anders Moberg, Dmitry M. Sonechkin, Karin Holmgren, Nina M. Datsenko and Wibjörn Karlén

Comment on "The Spatial Extent of 20th-Century Warmth in the Context of the Past 1200 Years" (Science, vol. 316. no. 5833, p. 1844, June 2007) - Gerd Bürger

A 2000-year global temperature reconstruction based on non-treering proxies (Energy & Environment, vol. 18, nos. 7-8, pp. 1049-1058, December 2007) - C. Loehle


Can We Detect Trends in Extreme Tropical Cyclones? (Science, vol. 313. no. 5786, pp. 452 - 454, 28 July 2006) - Christopher W. Landsea, Bruce A. Harper, Karl Hoarau, John A. Knaff

Causes of the Unusually Destructive 2004 Atlantic Basin Hurricane Season (Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, vol. 87, issue 10, October 2006) - Philip J. Klotzbach, William M. Gray

Comments on "Impacts of CO2-Induced Warming on Simulated Hurricane Intensity and Precipitation: Sensitivity to the Choice of Climate Model and Convective Scheme" (Journal of Climate, vol. 18, issue 23, December 2005) - Patrick J. Michaels, Paul C. Knappenberger, Christopher Landsea

Counting Atlantic Tropical Cyclones Back to 1900 (Transactions of the American Geophysical Union, vol. 88, no. 18, p. 197, 2007) - Christopher W. Landsea

Hurricanes and Global Warming (Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, vol. 86, issue 11, November 2005) - R. A. Pielke Jr., C. Landsea, M. Mayfield, J. Laver, and R. Pasch

Are there trends in hurricane destruction? (Nature 438, E11, 22 December 2005) - Roger A. Pielke, Jr.

Sea-surface temperatures and tropical cyclones in the Atlantic basin (Geophysical Research Letters, vol. 22, no. 33, L09708, 2006) - Patrick J. Michaels, Paul C. Knappenberger, Robert E. Davis

Tropical Cyclones and Global Climate Change: A Post-IPCC Assessment (Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, vol. 79, issue 1, January 1998) - A. Henderson-Sellers, H. Zhang, G. Berz, K. Emanuel, W. Gray, C. Landsea, G. Holland, J. Lighthill, S.-L. Shieh, P. Webster, K. McGuffie


Time to ditch Kyoto (Nature 449, 973-975, 25 October 2007) - Gwyn Prins, Steve Rayner

Medieval Warm Period/Little Ice Age

A 700 year record of Southern Hemisphere extratropical climate variability (Annals of Glaciology, vol. 39, p.127-132, 2004) - P.A Mayewski, K. Maasch, J.W.C White, E.J. Steig, E. Meyerson, I. Goodwin, V.I. Morgan, T. van Ommen, M.A.J. Curran, J. Sourney, K. Kreutz

Coherent High- and Low-Latitude Climate Variability During the Holocene Warm Period (Science, vol. 288. no. 5474, pp. 2198 - 2202, 23 June 2000) - Peter deMenocal, Joseph Ortiz, Tom Guilderson, Michael Sarnthein

Evidence for a 'Medieval Warm Period' in a 1,100 year tree-ring reconstruction of past austral summer temperatures in New Zealand (Geophysical Research Letters, vol. 29, no. 14, pp. 12-1 to 12-4. 15 July 2002) - E. R. Cook, J. G. Palmer, R. D'Arrigo

Evidence for the existence of the medieval warm period in China (Climatic Change, vol. 26, nos. 2-3, March, 1994) - De'Er Zhang

Glacial geological evidence for the medieval warm period (Climatic Change, vol. 26, nos. 2-3, March, 1994) - Jean M. Grove, Roy Switsur

Late Holocene surface ocean conditions of the Norwegian Sea (Vøring Plateau) (Paleooceanography, vol. 18, no. 2, 1044, 2003) - Carin Andersson, Bjørg Risebrobakken, Eystein Jansen, Svein Olaf Dahl

Low-Frequency Signals in Long Tree-Ring Chronologies for Reconstructing Past Temperature Variability (Science, vol. 295. no. 5563, pp. 2250 - 2253, 22 March 2002) - Jan Esper, Edward R. Cook, Fritz H. Schweingruber

Medieval climate warming and aridity as indicated by multiproxy evidence from the Kola Peninsula, Russia (Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, vol. 209, issues 1-4, pp. 113-125, 6 July 2004) - K. V. Kremenetski, T. Boettger, G. M. MacDonald, T. Vaschalova, L. Sulerzhitsky, A. Hiller

Medieval Warm Period, Little Ice Age and 20th century temperature variability from Chesapeake Bay (Global and Planetary Change, vol. 36, issues 1-2, March 2003, Pages 17-29) - T. M. Cronin, G. S. Dwyer, T. Kamiya, S. Schwede, D. A. Willard

The Little Ice Age and Medieval Warm Period in the Sargasso Sea (Science, vol. 274. no. 5292, pp. 1503 - 1508, 29 November 1996) - Lloyd D. Keigwin

The Little Ice Age and Medieval Warming in South Africa (South African Journal of Science 96: 121-126, 2000) - P. D. Tyson, W. Karlén, K. Holmgren and G. A. Heiss

The 'Mediaeval Warm Period' drought recorded in Lake Huguangyan, tropical South China (Holocene, vol. 12, no. 5, pp. 511-516, 2002) - Guoqiang Chu, Jiaqi Liu, Qing Sun, Houyuan Lu, Zhaoyan Gu, Wenyuan Wang, Tungsheng Liu

The Medieval Warm Period in the Daihai Area (Journal of Lake Sciences, vol. 14, no. 3, pp. 209-216, September 2002) - Z. Jin, J. Shen, S. Wang, E. Zhang

Torneträsk tree-ring width and density ad 500–2004: a test of climatic sensitivity and a new 1500-year reconstruction of north Fennoscandian summers (Climate Dynamics, January, 2008) - Håkan Grudd

Tree-ring and glacial evidence for the medieval warm epoch and the little ice age in southern South America (Climatic Change, vol. 26, nos. 2-3, March, 1994) - Ricardo Villalba

Polar Bears

Polar bears of western Hudson Bay and climate change: Are warming spring air temperatures the "ultimate" survival control factor? (Ecological Complexity, vol. 4, issue 3, pp. 73-84, September 2007) - M.G. Dyck, W. Soon, R.K. Baydack, D.R. Legates, S. Baliunas, T.F. Ball, L.O. Hancock

Sea Level

Estimating future sea level changes from past records (Global and Planetary Change, vol. 40, issues 1-2, pp. 49-54, January 2004) - Nils-Axel Mörner

New perspectives for the future of the Maldives (Global and Planetary Change, vol. 40, issue 1-2, pp. 177-182. 2004) - Nils-Axel Mörner, Michael Tooley, Goran Possnert

Snowfall-Driven Growth in East Antarctic Ice Sheet Mitigates Recent Sea-Level Rise (Science, vol. 308. no. 5730, pp. 1898 - 1901, 24 June 2005) - Curt H. Davis, Yonghong Li, Joseph R. McConnell, Markus M. Frey, Edward Hanna

Solar Influence on Climate (Part I)

A mechanism for sun-climate connection (Geophysical Research Letters, vol. 32, 2005) - Sultan Hameed, Jae N. Lee

A Millennium Scale Sunspot Reconstruction: Evidence for an Unusually Active Sun Since the 1940s (Physical Review Letters 91, 2003) - Ilya G. Usoskin, Sami K. Solanki, Manfred Schüssler, Kalevi Mursula, Katja Alanko

Celestial Climate Driver: A Perspective from Four Billion Years of the Carbon Cycle (Geoscience Canada, vol. 32, no. 1, March 2005) - Ján Veizer

Celestial driver of Phanerozoic climate? (Geological Society of America Today, vol. 13, issue 7, July 2003) - Nir J. Shaviv, Ján Veizer

Climate Change: The Sun's Role (arXiv:0706.3621, 23 Jun 2007) - Gerald E. Marsh

Comparison of proxy records of climate change and solar forcing (Geophysical Research Letters, vol. 23, issue 4, pp. 359-362, 02/1996) - Crowley, Thomas J., Kim, Kwang-Yul

Evidence of Solar Variation in Tree-Ring-Based Climate Reconstructions (Solar Physics, vol. 205, no. 2, pp. 403-417, February 2002) - M.G. Ogurtsov , G.E. Kocharov, M. Lindholm, J. Meriläinen, M. Eronen, Yu.A. Nagovitsyn

Geophysical, archaeological, and historical evidence support a solar-output model for climate change (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, vol. 97, no. 23, 12433-12438, November 7, 2000) - Charles A. Perry, Kenneth J. Hsu

Has solar variability caused climate change that affected human culture? (Advances in Space Research, vol. 40, issue 7, Pages 1173-1180, 2007) - Joan Feynmana

Imprint of Galactic dynamics on Earth's climate (Astronomische Nachrichten, vol. 327, issue 9, Pages 866 - 870, 10 Oct 2006) - H. Svensmark

Is solar variability reflected in the Nile River? (Journal of Geophysical Research, vol. 111, D21114, 2006) - Alexander Ruzmaikin, Joan Feynman, Yuk L. Yung

Length of the Solar Cycle: An Indicator of Solar Activity Closely Associated with Climate (Science, vol. 254. no. 5032, pp. 698 - 700, November 1991) - E. Friis-Christensen, K. Lassen

Linkages between solar activity, climate predictability and water resource development (Journal of the South African Institution of Civil Engineering, vol. 49 no. 2, pp. 32–44, June 2007) - W J R Alexander, F Bailey, D B Bredenkamp, A van der Merwe, N Willemse

Long-Period Cycles of the Sun's Activity Recorded in Direct Solar Data and Proxies (Solar Physics, vol. 211, nos. 1-2, December, 2002) - M.G. Ogurtsov, Yu.A. Nagovitsyn, G.E. Kocharov, H. Jungner

Orbital Controls on the El Niño/Southern Oscillation and the Tropical Climate (Paleoceanogrpahy, vol. 14, no. 4, pp. 441–456, 1999) - A. C. Clement, R. Seager, M. A. Cane

Palaeoenvironmental evidence for solar forcing of Holocene climate: linkages to solar science (Progress in Physical Geography, vol. 23, no. 2, 181-204, 1999) - Frank M. Chambers, Michael I. Ogle, Jeffrey J. Blackford

Persistent Solar Influence on North Atlantic Climate During the Holocene (Science, vol. 294. no. 5549, pp. 2130 - 2136, 7 December 2001) - Gerard Bond, Bernd Kromer, Juerg Beer, Raimund Muscheler, Michael N. Evans, William Showers, Sharon Hoffmann, Rusty Lotti-Bond, Irka Hajdas, Georges Bonani

Phenomenological solar contribution to the 1900–2000 global surface warming (Geophysical Research Letters, vol. 33, L05708, 2006) - N. Scafetta, B. J. West

Phenomenological solar signature in 400 years of reconstructed Northern Hemisphere temperature record (Geophysical Research Letters, vol. 33, L17718, 2006) - N. Scafetta, B. J. West

Possible solar forcing of century-scale drought frequency in the northern Great Plains (Geology, vol. 27, no. 3, pp. 263-266, Mar 1999) - Zicheng Yu, Emi Ito

Reply to Lockwood and Fröhlich – The persistent role of the Sun in climate forcing (Danish National Space Center Scientific Report, 3/2007) - H. Svensmark, E.Friis-Christensen

Regional tropospheric responses to long-term solar activity variations (Advances in Space Research, vol. 40, issue 7, pp. 1167-1172, 2007) - O.M. Raspopov, V.A. Dergachev, A.V. Kuzmin, O.V. Kozyreva, M.G. Ogurtsov, T. Kolström and E. Lopatin
Yes...but they are not the ones making the statements. James M. Taylor is interviewing scientists, and he is not actually saying these things. Heartland is unreliable? Well, well....umm
How much of this video is true?
Well, I stand corrected. My apologies, Doone. For almost 6 months I believed them........good thing that I came across this atheist forum. If not, I would still be running around like a headless chicken, with misguided informations, wondering as to why scientists are raising such an alarm.
Thanks, padre! ^^
How true, how true! I owe you an apology as well. Sorry mate. That video really took a hold on me. I need to thank this forum..........and of course, you two gentlemen.
Signing off~~~~~
Unmasking the Global Warming Belief System

Environment & Climate News > April 2010
Environment > Climatic change: Alarmism
Email a Friend
Written By: Review by Jay Lehr
Published In: Environment & Climate News > April 2010
Publication date: 03/03/2010
Publisher: The Heartland Institute
Climatism: Science, Common Sense, and the 21st Century’s Hottest Topic
By Steve Goreham
New Lenox Books, 2010, 480 pages
ISBN-13: 9780982499634

If you care about twenty-first century society, you must read Steve Goreham’s new book, Climatism. In my 55-year career as a scientist I have written more than 1,000 book reviews for various journals. No book has pleased me more than this one.

Unmasking a Dangerous System

After The Heartland Institute’s Third International Conference on Climate Change in March 2009, Goreham decided to summarize, between the covers of a single book, everything everyone should know on this topic. In 390 pages of narrative, including 133 outstanding charts and illustrations plus 1,134 references from countless articles, he has succeeded.

Goreham has performed a service for the uncommitted citizen, which could one day lead to the unraveling of the new social order, religion, and political system Goreham calls climatism. While an ever-larger percentage of the public is beginning to recognize that man cannot and does not control the global climate, the public has no idea how thoroughly climatism has infiltrated the seats of world power.

Scientific Flaws

The first five chapters of the book are filled with persuasive science presented in such a readable manner that the average layman will easily grasp it. For instance, we often hear about the concepts of positive and negative climate feedback, but few people understand their importance. The author explains these concepts clearly and shows how the asserted positive feedbacks that cause most of the forecasted warming in alarmist computer models are not happening in the real world.

In a section titled “Garbage In, Garbage Out,” Goreham explains:

“Model simulation results are not experimental data. No matter how many different models get similar results, no matter how many times models are run, if the underlying physical basis of the assumptions [is] wrong, the models will give the wrong result. And the modelers have been finely tuning the wrong result for 30 years.”

Chapter six, “Global Warming Disasters Debunked,” is by itself worth the price of the book. Here the author provides the reader with objective evidence to counter the plethora of unsubstantiated global warming scares presented by climatists and their media allies.

IPCC Farce Exposed

Few people really understand the origin, purpose, and composition of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Goreham pulls off the difficult task of explaining it more vividly than a sports commentator explains a key play in the Super Bowl.

In short, IPCC is a political organization masquerading as a scientific body. As a political organization, it works to achieve political consensus, not scientific truth.

IPCC, Goreham explains, created a process to achieve a “science consensus” confirming manmade global warming by effectively using six techniques.

The first was to assemble a large group of scientists to agree on a consensus. The second was to select authors of critical chapters who are predisposed to support the manmade global warming dogma. The third was to provide these authors with authoritarian editorial power.

The fourth technique was to encourage lobbying groups to pressure for consensus. The fifth: writing the conclusions before the science was agreed. The sixth and final technique was selective choice of science to support the dogma and minimize natural explanations for climate change.

The process has been truly Machiavellian, but IPCC has largely gotten away with it and most of the world believes the garbage they publish.

Underlying Motives

In chapter eight Goreham defines climatism in all its ignominious awfulness: “Climatism opposes the free development of human society and seeks to substitute autocratic control from centralized government bureaucracy. It calls for the radical transformation of our way of life, regardless of cost. Climatism demands adherence from all nations.”

In chapter nine, Goreham presents a vest-pocket guide to dissuading your friends of the prevalent false beliefs about climate. This chapter is a must-read.

In part three of the book, encompassing chapters 12 through 17, Goreham offers the finest tutorial on the hopelessness of renewable energy “solutions.” He draws heavily from Howard Hayden’s wonderful book Solar Fraud, as well as many other sources, and his investigative reporting style presents all this information in a very understandable manner.

Goreham really gets to the nut of climatism insanity in chapter 17, where he asks, “When has mankind ever been able to stop the rise of the sea? When have we ever been able to control the weather at a single location on Earth? Yet, climatism now demands that we switch to renewable energy, forego economic growth and consumption, and accept thousands of regulations on energy use for our home, transportation, business and recreation. If we do so, then we’ll be able to command the tides and control the weather. Climatism is a belief system--not a science.”

House of Cards

Climatism is big business. It financially supports modeling scientists and their multimillion-dollar supercomputers, environmental editors at newspapers, entire university departments, environmental vice presidents at thousands of companies, and huge government bureaucracies of climate regulators, enforcers, and consultants.

We now have a great many people standing on a house of cards, but the more people who read this book and spread the truth it contains, the sooner this house of cards will come tumbling down.

Jay Lehr, Ph.D. (jlehr@heartland.org) is science director of The Heartland Institute.
Global Warming Snow Job

Environment > Climate: IPCC
Environment > Climatic change: Alarmism
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Written By: Washington Times
Publication date: 02/11/2010
Publisher: The Washington Times
Record snowfall illustrates the obvious: The global warming fraud is without equal in modern science.

The fundamental problems exposed about climate-change theory undermine the very basis of scientific inquiry. Huge numbers of researchers refuse to provide their data to other scientists. Some referenced data is found not to have existed. The U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change 2007 report that global warming activists continually cite invented a large number of purported facts. Consider a few of the problems with the U.N. report that came to light over the past few weeks.

• The Himalayan glaciers were supposed to disappear as soon as 2035. The United Nations didn't base this hysteria on an academic study. Instead, it relied on a news story that interviewed a single Indian glaciologist in 1999. Syed Hasnain, the glaciologist in question, says he was misquoted and provided no date to the reporter. The doomsday account was simply made up, and the United Nations never bothered to confirm the claim.

• Because of purported global warming, the world supposedly "suffered rapidly rising costs due to extreme weather-related events since the 1970s." The U.N. cited one unpublished study to prove this. When the research eventually was published in 2008 after the IPCC report was released, the authors backpedaled: "We find insufficient evidence to claim a statistical relationship between global temperature increase and catastrophe losses."

• Up to 40 percent of the Amazon rain forest was said to be at risk because of rising global temperatures. Again, the U.N. didn't cite any academic studies but merely one non-refereed report authored by two non-scientists, one of whom worked for the World Wildlife Fund, an activist organization.

• The U.N. dramatically claimed that 55 percent of the Netherlands is below sea level when the accurate portion is 26 percent.

Getting facts wrong and citing dubious sources isn't the worst of it. Rajendra K. Pachauri, the U.N.'s climate chief, remained silent when he knew information was false and denied he had been aware of the Himalayan glaciers error before the recent climate-change summit in Copenhagen, which made a big deal about this nonexistent crisis. He only grudgingly came partly clean when Pallava Bagla, a writer for the journal Science, pointed to e-mail correspondence from last autumn showing Mr. Pachauri already knew of the fraud.

Adolescent name-calling further exposes the weakness of the case for man-made global warming and how desperate the leaders of this cult are becoming. On Feb. 3, Mr. Pachauri defended the fudged IPCC report and slandered critics as "people who deny the link between smoking and cancer; they are people who say that asbestos is as good as talcum powder. I hope that they apply [asbestos] to their faces every day." This nasty piece of work tries to redirect attention away from his phony science by blaming skepticism about climate change on "business interests" that "spread a lot of disinformation."

Man-made global warming theory isn't backed up by science; it's a hoax. The fact that the world has been asked to spend tens of trillions of dollars on global warming solutions without being able to evaluate the data upon which the claims were made should have been the first warning that something was seriously wrong. The public and world leaders have been sold expensive snake oil by charlatans like Mr. Pachauri. It's time to admit it's all baloney and move on.
Here's my deal.. I think that the environmentalists have let themselves be turned away from the main thrust of keeping our planet as clean as possible by making the smallest negative environmental footprint as possible....by allowing the veracity of the Global warming argument to become the nexus of the movement.

Here's my deal... 'DON"T FUCK WITH THE AIR SUPPLY"... Is there really any argument for not putting every effort into making the tiniest negative environmental impact as possible?...and doing that SOONER, rather than too late? If we wait until there's overwhelming evidence that the use of fossil fuels are influencing climate change that even wealthy oil magnates will recognize it may be too late to do anything about it.

Don't keep cutting down all our oxygen-producing plant life. This is also only common sense.

"Don't fuck with the water supply".... Don't dump all your waste and toxins into the same fluid that you drink. Don't kill off integral parts of the food chain.

Again common sense... We can't afford to let the argument for smallest environmental footprint NOW....verses later get derailed by the arguments over the global warming models.

Its just crazy.... Fuck global warming...... Don't FUCK with the air supply is what we should be saying. We've got to breathe this shit!

You know they've banned smoking in restaurants and bars......and the right-wing religious have promoted this.

We might have more luck turning the global warming debate into a second hand smoke debate. It would pull the rug right out from under many 'right-wingers' feet.

(this last said with tongue only slightly in cheek)
Yes, yes and yes. This is what people don't see. The best debates and arguments come from the scientists themselves who can't afford to be persuaded by feelings and emotions. They have to be self-correcting continually. I don't want to accept anyones word on faith alone. I want the tests and models to be correct.

A volcanic eruption can dramatically affect climate and life on this planet by the tons and tons of material it puts into the atmosphere. We have historical evidence for this.

Its not a stretch at all to say that LESS is better than MORE when talking about the amount of materials we put into the atmosphere.

I don't want to kill ourselves by killing our economy either... There's got to be a way to phase in 'greener' ways of doing things that will help the planet and not kill us NOW.

Surely we can find compromises.
"Diurnal temperature variation is related to water vapour concentration, hence deserts (hot or cold) have greater diurnal ranges. This has nothing to do with proximity to the equator." OK, then how does this explain the frozen land about -20F along the western Alaska and Canadian coasts with the associated ocean at about 40F? They both have about the same relative humidity in the air?

It's because water is a good conductor of heat. As a matter of fact it has about 15 to 150 times the thermal conductivity that soil has. So, while the energy the ocean receives during the day is conducted down into colder water and the temperature doesn't go as high, the land tends to get hotter and re-radiate heat out into space more than water does (The black body radiation from a hot object has more energy than the equivalent sized colder body). So, the amount of re-radiated energy from land is greater than from water, so it should eliminate more radiation faster than water as indicated by the 'heat sink' we associate with the ocean. That being the case, more land in an area which receives more daylight radiation will radiate out more energy at night causing a net overall cooling effect compared to the same energy being deposited into water, all other factors being equal. Correct?
The only thing is that there are those with a vested interest who will not do ANYTHING different like seriously trying to find alternative energy sources...until they have drained the last drop of oil out of the last hole in the earth.... The same for coal and natural gas too. They will spend tons of money and effort fighting and arguing the science...that could be used developing and researching new ways to do things. Think of all the money wasted by Big Tobacco in trying to defend its product? If they had used the same amount of time and effort into alternative uses for Tobacco who knows what they might have come up with.

We can't afford to wait till depletion to get on this... This isn't something we can just put off on our kids like the national debt. We can't just create pretend fuel like we do the money. (we also need an answer to the economy question... Alternative economic resources... money is dying we need something else...but that's for another post)


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