Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on October 21, 2011 at 1:23am

Rich, this has always been the puzzle to me:

If you don't like being characterized as a nasty Christian, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Change your image! Demonize the demons - Exactly.

Hey, Trevor, I don't know what religion you are, but can you tell me why xians sit on their hands while:

Mormon old men marry girls as young as twelve, babies arriving around the age of fourteen, pubescent boys in the compound are kicked out, no education, as they are a threat to the old geysers.

Why catholics go to church and prop up the hierarchy, while, from the pope down, protect serial pedophiles, when they should be sending them to jail.

Why do jehovah witness cover up their serial pedophiles, instead of sending them to jail.

 

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" - 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Why any female wants to belong to any religion, when she is told and treated as an inferior and must be subjugated  by men. 

Why do men allow their partner to be treated this way. Is it because he doesn't have a backbone nor respect for his partner.

This is the point, as many well read and educated Atheists have already said, we KNOW the bible, and when I read it, really starting seriously from the age of fourteen, and now I am 120 years old lol, I have read things that I just cannot believe it says, and then for people to read the same stuff, and ignore it. I just don't get it. 

How can xians gloss over the rape, murder, selling off of daughters to rapists, killing children. I just don't get it. What do you actually look at and absorb.

Nothing makes up for these crimes - nothing.

Atheists do not care what people believe or not believe, do not give a hoot,  but it is when stuff is done in the hiding behind the cross TO THIS DAY, AND IS STILL HAPPENING, the horrendous crimes against humanity.

 

Start reading, my friend, it is called Educating Trevor - you may be really surprised.

How can you ignore what is going on in the world, and whatever country you come from> Whatever country you come from, it is happening there. Why aren't xians appalled, when Atheists are. How do you do you sit on your hands, turn your head the other way, and still call yourself a xian.

Why aren't there groups of xians protesting of the criminal acts done in your name.

Hypocrites of the world united = Xians.

 

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Permalink Reply by Trevor on October 21, 2011 at 5:59am

Hi Suzanne

 

I am really struggling to disengage with this website, I think I will just need to bit the bullet and cancel my account.  I joined up for friendly, reasonable discussion and to genuinely learn what athiests think and presuppose.  Unfortunatley I have been met with ridicicule, condescension, insults and foul language.  After asking what athiests think (not commenting on christianity or theism), I was told in another thread to "take my sh*t else where), so I am trying to!  I have to say am glad that athiests are very much in the minority in our world as my experience here (not theoretical derived from reading the Origin of the species etc,) tells me that an athiest world would be a hateful one, where civil conversation is impossible unless everyone believes what they do.  Scary.  Not to tar all athiests with the same brush, one or two have been polite.

 

The difficulty for me then has been in responding to any questions, as they have been asked in non enquuiry forms.  "we already know all the answers - but go on give us a laugh"  It also means that athiests here are so set on what they want to believe they do not want to make any distinctions, or consider and nuances, or take any interpreation as valid - which is scientifically silly.  Athiest presupposition = there is no God.  Athiest persuits, have conversations with each other that confirm this even if they have no grounding in reality.  Athiest in dialogue for mututal discovery - we don't do that. Sorry for generalisations but thats just based on spending 1 week on this website.  I did not come here expecting that to be the case, I actaully thought more of athiests than that.

 

With that in mind, how do I engage with any questions and discussion.  Its impossible.  I wish it wasn't.  But athiests here have so blinded themselves by what they want to believe that discussion is virtually impossible.  How sad!  How sad when athiests are so hell bent (no pun intended) on affirming each other that they deny and re-interpret history so that all bad things have been done by christians and that no good things have been done by them - christians are just evil.  Its just intellectually dishonest.

 

Can we discuss that theists make up the majority of the world, and so obviously if people do wrong things, statistically it will be a self evident truth that more wrongs are done by theists.  Can we see that human nature uses anything to do what it already wants to do.  We don't give up politics because some politicians are corrupt, or medical practicem because Harold Shipman (a doctor in the UK) killed loads of his patients.).   i would love to discuss then if christians actually in real life do bad things because the Bible tells them to - but I can't have that discussion, because no serious discussion can be had here unless you already agree with athiesm.  I'd like to discuss Jeffery Dama's statment that because there is no God, nothing he does matters, and how Stalin knew the same.  But utterly not possible here.  I'd love to show that every christian church in all the main denomintations have vigous child protection policies and voluntarily belong to organisations that help to spot when a peodophile targets a church as hunting ground.  Or how lumping all cults together and calling them christian is unreasonable, and why.  But alas its not possible.

 

I would love to discuss how Jesus clearly elevated the status of women and thedifference between value and role distinctions.  I'd like to show you how mainstream christianity interprets the text you quote using sound, established hermentutical principles.  But I can't even go there.

 

But you already know all the answers, you already understand all doctrine, you already know all history, you have already tested all christians and found them wanting, you already know all things.  Friends (I can't actually say that, but want to), i'm a christian and want honest, respectful, non-condesending, open thinking, discussion.  You are athiests and refused me these things (apart from one or two), forget me convincing you of anything - please just take a look at yourselves and ask if this is really where you want to be.

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Permalink Reply by Natasha Gladwell on October 21, 2011 at 6:13am

Hi Trevor,

 

I started this discussion, and am very sad to hear that you are feeling this way about the website and most atheists in general. I unfortunately do see what you mean about some of the people on this site. Although, like myself, there are many atheists here willing to discuss and debate in a peaceful and non-threatening manner, I too have since seen those atheists who insist on being unpleasant and condescending, even often to each other. I think sites like this tend to attract those willing to push their views on others and who are up for an argument that will never end on a friendly note.

 

I hope that, if you do decide to leave the site, in the future when you meet atheists, you will not assume that they are like the people who have upset you here. I assure you that, as is the case with people of any group belief (or lack of belief) there are kind, pleasant atheists out there. Perhaps this site is not the place for me either. I too did not come here for people to end up insulting each other, and I am very sorry that this discussion has ended this way for you. I did not intend for anyone to be insulting or degrading to each other on this topic.

 

Good luck and take care, whatever you decide. I for one, will not judge you on your decision to leave.

 

Natasha

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Permalink Reply by Trevor on October 21, 2011 at 6:19am

Thanks Natasha, I take your points on board.  You give me hope!

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Permalink Reply by Jason Ward on October 22, 2011 at 3:56am

This sounds familiar. Much was stated but it seems to equate as a "woe to me" mode of thinking which is less disturbing and underhanded as what has been offered, I suspect. By this I mean your conclusion was expected and even coerced by mild questioning and ever subtle insult so as to incite a response you knew would clearly overshadow your comment exposing the respondent to the accusation of incivility. Hence, "I joined up for friendly, reasonable discussion and to genuinely learn what atheists think and presuppose.  Unfortunately I have been met with ridicule, condescension, insults and foul language." Pardon me for thinking some christians deceptive in contrast as I have been reminded often that "faith gives us strength". That you have been met with ridicule is enough to drive you away from you goal suggests a lack of fortitude or this is precisely what you wished and contrived to take place. It has all the flavor of the motherly guilt trip and if I am correct, congratulations on convincing some that you are simply a gentlemanly individual who was viciously attacked by atheists for no reason than that of asking questions and became, as so many poor christians before,"the victim" You will bid adieu to the site with some inspiring christian words a slight glint of moistened retinas and with all that is needed to paint, in your mind and those of your colleagues, atheists as mean spirited and unapproachable, to say the least. If, however I am wrong on this, you will accept the few apologies due and stay on to offer your perspective of the christian mindset further benefiting both causes and potentially converting (though of course unintentionally) a few atheists to your faith while gracefully weathering the storm of potential unpleasantness like an adult.

 

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Permalink Reply by Trevor on October 22, 2011 at 4:55am

Jason, thanks atleast for the polite volume level!  You may be right it may be a lack of fortitude on my part, or that personally, I just don't like or see the need for rudeness.  I have paused to wonder if this is partly cultural. I am British and i'm guessing from comments that a lot of folks here are American.

 

I happen to find US politics similar to a circus show, and Americans overall to be a bit nutty and over the top!  Sorry, no offence intended ;-)  Whilst even that does not make rudeness ok, it helps me understand a bit more.  Whilst Brits generally see Americans as family, its kind of in the 'emabaressing brother' mode, who we would always defend but wish they were not the way they were!  I digress.  (One of my best friends is American though).

 

You would probably be better off arguing with me that my own doctrine of sin would tell me that human nature is inherantly corrupt and so in all groups of people this is to be expected.   

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Jason Ward on October 22, 2011 at 5:26am

In reverse order if I may, I was not arguing with you, form my perspective I am somewhat suspect of you and what appear to be your tactics which I referred to. You may genuine in your desire to understand a differing perspective but I think even you would agree that the odds are against this in general. Be that as it may I will accept the possibility of genuine interest but I think you would be wise to accept a certain degree of potential animosity from possible adversaries. Surely you would agree to knowing and even associating with fellow Christians who's attitude was less than appealing or even rude. As far as the Brits are concerned, my exposure has been little more than Monty Python, who as we would agree could be quite rude (Love the parrot sketch.)

U.S. politics is, to me, less a circus that that of the floor of the house of commons though I prefer the British method of discussion with all the booing and generally rude behavior, seems more genuine. As opposed to U.S. methods of one speaks others sleep until their turn arrives, how boring.

Culturally speaking, America is a very diverse nation which adds to it's character I suppose and to it's varying degree of perspectives and attitudes, so if we seem a bit unruly it does not suggest our points made are unfounded or worthy of side stepping.

I seem to recall Johnathan Miller referring to god from the British perspective as "The gentlemanly old fellow kept upstairs who might occasionally come downstairs incontinently and cause trouble."

To return to the end of you comment, arguing against your religious affiliation or specifically your doctrine seems a bit pointless since it can be contrived to mean whatever one likes (Well that's what the bible means to me). I'm not sure what point there would be in that.

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Permalink Reply by Trevor on October 22, 2011 at 9:04am

Hi Jason

 

Sorry, I didn't really mean to be attacking Americans in general, I was trying to say that British people find the volume level of Americans generally very high.  I was trying to take that into account with the responses here.

 

I do understand your questioning my motives for being here, as I would yours on a christian website.

 

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Permalink Reply by Suzanne Olson-Hyde on October 22, 2011 at 4:02am

Hello Trevor,

You, my friend, did not answer any of my questions - What religion do you follow?

You must remember, this is my first premise - god has not been proven to me.

 

I have to say am glad that athiests are very much in the minority in our world as my experience here - there you go - you just haven't met enough Atheists, because we are in the minority.

You forgot the general interpretation of us - we are immoral, we lie, we cheat, we steal, we kill babies and eat them.

 

Atheists are hell bent (no pun intended) on affirming each other that they deny and re-interpret history - what history - the history of the German Inquisition, The Spanish Inquisition. Do you really understand what happened???

What history am I ignoring.

 

It's not that we ignore the good things done by xians, there just have not been enough, keeping in mind they are FOLLOWING your bible - which I contend to be evil. Of course, there are many good xians. The problem is that they are not in power. It's the powerful who are corrupt, greedy, an awful lot of them are deviants - all hiding behind the bible, while the rest are superstitious and afraid, mainly of hell.

 

We don't give up on politics because some are corrupt - but in the west, we can vote them out - the pope is still in power, his buffoon thugs are still in power, mormons still have their enclaves, exclusive brethren still rule by fear etc. etc. Scientology is rampant - ripping gullible stupid people of their money, and for that they are filled with  fear.

 

i would love to discuss then if christians actually in real life do bad things because the Bible tells them to - 

 

I can quote all the misogyny and murder, rape and pillage from the bible if you want - it's the hypocrisy of hiding being the bible and the cross that makes me want to throw up - it's not that the bible TELLS them to do evil things, except the misogyny of course. 

Why, do you think, when a person is bought up in a xian family, they are xian, when a person is bought up in a muslim family, they become muslim? The same reason that if you are taught English, that is what you know, if you are taught Arabic or French, that is what you know. You follow Christianity, cause that is what you were 'taught'. If you, as the same person you are now, were bought up in India, you would be one of their religions, you could well be Hindi.

 

My Atheism came with the epiphany that xians said one thing, then did another = hypocrisy 

Then reading the bible simply put layers of Atheism onto me, starting with god made the heavens and earth, so who made god?   But, you want to believe in god, that's ok.

 

Then came the Garden of Eden - not even a cute story or myth, but, to me an evil one. A talking snake, told to eat from The Tree of Knowledge'. I would have done that. I would not have known who god was, and I would not have known who the snake was - so eat from The Tree of Knowledge sounds really good to me.

 

Could you answer my questions on why xians completely ignore what their fellow xians are doing. Read my last post again - I would really like to know.

 

I  think I am middle of the road Atheist, and truly am not bothered in any way shape or form, what a christian or any religious person believes per se, it is only when religion imposes its morals on me, (by the by, my morals and ethics are better than 90% of any christian)  and its hate, vitriol and hypocrisy on me and on my fellow human beings. 

If you like, I will send you some links to some of the stuff I read most days, and by the by, I am not trying to convert you.

 

Hermeneutic discussion - that's how I came to the conclusion of my Atheism - dissect, analyse what is says, not what I THINK it says. Why are there so many different bibles and then on top of that different interpretations of the bible - is not the truth, the truth.

 

If xians just kept to themselves, no problems. I really don't understand, and if you can explain it to  me, why with god looking down on them, and taking notes of every thought word and deed, so many, taken, not all, but far too many cause such pain and heartache, and ruin the lives of so many people, and don't tell me humans are flawed, and commit sins - there are far too many doing it. I would trust an Atheist before anyone making the statement 'I am a Christian".

It takes only one ratbag to have control over millions of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_convicted_religious_leaders - This, as they say, is the tip of the iceberg.

 

This does not include all the evil shites of all the aforementioned denominations or the crimes against humanity that xians perpetrate, which are very far reaching, and this list doesn't include the genocide in your bible.

As a child, I could never understand why the priest, bishops etc, wore gold threaded through their clothes, when people were starving. I could never understand why the chalice and tabernacle had to be gold, when people were starving. And why a woman could not say Mass. She was only good for the cleaning of the church, sewing of the gold thread through the garments, and cooking for said priest. 

Just not good enough.

I went to catechism classes, with a hateful nun. Ask a question, and it was a Mystery of God, ask again, and one was cracked over the knuckles with a ruler.

Very loving.

We were told not to read the old testament. So, of course I did. What were they trying to hide. The frigging Garden of Eden, for a start. Garden of Eden is a discussion all on its own. This was my first epiphany of what is really evil.

Your god made too many mistakes - and they just kept mounting up. Your bible is muddy and contradictory.

But, I knew three christians who were really good people. One a Catholic priest. I made my first communion, Confirmation, Marriage, and the baptism of my first child. The second was a Catholic nun. Truly a good person and so much fun. She had a life before becoming a nun, boyfriends, rode a motor bike, sense of humour and a good teacher of my son. The third was a Seventh Day Adventist. A really good man and lovely family. He hated Jews for killing Jesus, but that is another story.

These three people were not good because they were Christian, they were innately good people. These are the only people, out of the thousands of xians I have met, who are really good honest people.

I could not be 'friends' or socialize with a xian.

The reason my Atheism gets stronger all the time:

We get xians on this site who just quote the bible - big mistake. That is when I can dredge up all the hate and violence in the bible - from your loving god.

 

For every quote you make, I can quote a contradictory quote.

 

When I read the bible these days, I just find it so hard to believe anyone can believe it, and live their life revolving around it. It just makes me sad and angry.

 

It is the xians hiding behind the bible, professing to be good and honest and loving then stabbing people in the back - or raping women and children - of the control and abuse metered out to women ad nauseam, of the charlatans taking advantage of good people, in the guise of religion.

They cause the most damage.

For me the bible was written by superstitious males of the desert,  herding goats, camels and donkeys. Uneducated and violent. Not a good combination. Then it turned into a PR exercise, complete with people like you doing the advertising. Most people believe it, some don't, and they are called Atheists.

But our numbers are growing due to education and the internet, communicating, and seeing all the evil done in the name of the church.

Every time a xian comes onto this site, it convinces me even more of my Atheism.

 

Hateful, not here, fear, not here, not everybody agrees about everything, but the thing we do agree upon is - god has not been proven to us.

This site is a Community Hall - we don't have churches, synagogues, we congregate on sites like this. We don't have tax free havens - we don't raise money for our own purposes - like a huge house/houses, huge cathedrals etc. etc. etc.

Just look at how many different groups are on this site - we have no need to prop each other up, we talk about, and have so many other interests other than Atheism.

Atheists do get angry when a xian comes onto this site - we are reading the same book - and coming to totally different conclusions.

And Atheists like me, read and see the damage that is caused by religion.

Of course, some Atheists are crude, rude and belligerent. I know I can get really sick of being nice, which is my innate nature - when xians ignore what is happening in the world in the name of religion.

We don't ignore - that's the difference.

Gen. 2:18; 1 Cor. 11:9; 1 Tim. 2:12-13 – while some people argue that God imposed the submission requirement upon women as a punishment for the original sin, this is not true. God designated the man as the head of his family from the very beginning of creation, even before the original sin.  Therefore, man’s authority over the woman was not imposed as a punishment for the original sin, but to reflect the order of creation.

 

1 Tim. 2:11-15 – Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression: but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety.

 

1 Corinthians 11:3-10 - But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ. Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man. For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

Well, you know what you can do with your lovely Paul - Misogynist Personified.

So, which bible, and which part of the bible should I take note of? As I said - contradictory.

Not good enough.

Women certainly are different from men - all women want is to be treated EQUALLY - no frigging subservience of ANY KIND. Name one religion that treats women equally.

So, tell me how women are not supposed to be subjugated by men, and I know you will quote something out of the bible. The problem is, xians follow the above quotes. Why. Because these are man made rules, and men in power like these rules.

I would not go onto a xian site and expect them to listen to me - I know what it is like when Jehovah  Witness come to my door - I just ask them what they are doing about the pedophile problem rampant in their midst and produce the Newspaper and Internet information to them. What can they say? Not much.

 

I am waiting for the day a muslim comes to my door - am I ready for them lol

 

Cheers - Suzanne

 

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Permalink Reply by Trevor on October 22, 2011 at 5:54am

Hi Suzanne

 

I don't mind talking, but do you actually want to?  You seem very bitter so i don't know if you just want to make points, or if you would like to enter into a (friendly) discussion?  (I'm sure you have reason to be bitter, that wasn't a slight).

 

Well you raised so many things, I can't discuss all of them meaningfully at the same time without writing a book.  I'll make a few comments to begin with so you know where I am coming from.

 

1.  I live in the UK.  You cannot say that because I was born here I am a christian, but if I was born somewhere else I would be a moslem etc.  The UK is very secular, there is no sense in which you can call it a christian country.  It is of course very multi-cultural now, which if you have visited London you would know.  The UK does not resemble the US in its religious landscape in any way.  The education system is thoroughly secular with a token Religious class thrown in to look at all the world religions.

 

I also did not grow up in any kind of christian environment, or had any christian input.  I became a christian when I was 21, and only started going to church because of a girl I liked (I should be embaressed about that).

 

I should say that the same charge is true for you though.  You live in a western rational scientific culture, thats why your an athiest.  If you were born in Iran, you wouldn't be.  Athiesm is cultural too.  I don't know if you are British (signing cheers) or American (politcal comments) but either way these things stand.

 

2.  I am glad that you recognise that the Bible does not tell people to do evil things, with  your exception of mysogony (which I don't accept).  So anyone doing things immoral in the name of being a christian is not because Christianity is immoral but people misuse it.  I am glad you agree on that. 

 

3.  My definition of Christian.  There are loads of cults and sects that call themselves christians that you mention.  With the danger of appearing arrogant, I need to ask out of all the people who do so, how do we know which group actually are christians.  I hope you will agree that the Bible must be the starting point for anything called Christian.

 

 Some principles.                                         

 

a.  The Bible says it should not be added to or taken away from.  Any group that does this, like adding the pope as having equal authority to the bible. or the watch tower or mormons who actually put more weight on their own book fail that test.

 

b.  The Bible says that a sign of false religion is that it refuses people the right to marry.  Thats what Catholocism does.  It also says that there is only one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus - but Catholics add Mary as an intermediary co-redemtrix because of the teachings of the popes.

 

c.  Additionally, the Bible clearly teaches that salvation does not come through human effort but by grace.  That beleiving that Jesus died for you brings salvation.  That means any religion that teaches that works save you is not christian, including catholocism, mormonism, JW's etc.

 

I know you couldn't care less about any of that.  I am just saying that I do not intend to defend any cult.  When i speak about Christianity I am ONLY refering to 'evangelical' christianity - meaning Bible alone, beliving christians.  As I said I don't expect you to care or even agree, it doesn't matter - I am just defining where I am coming from.

 

4.  With you contenting that the Bible is evil - I presume what you mean is not objectively morally wrong but actually unhelpful for society.  I presume that you beleive that nothing is objectively morally wrong or right.  As Dawkins admits that there is no such thing as objective good and evil in a world without God.  There is only what society as a whole thinks is good for it or bad for it.  Of course, that means that your view that is morally evil is completely subjective and born out of the times and small tribal group that shares your oppinion.  Problem is that the vast majority of the world does not agree with you about the Bible.  So your argument is rather weak.

 

Let me press in on that a bit by asking a question.  Was the holocaust objectively evil and wrong despite when or where it took place, and even if the majority of the world thought it was ok?  If you think it was morally evil and would be despite cultutal and societal opinion - on what basis do you think so.  I suggest you live as if there is a God who provides an objective moral standard, that he has written on the hearts of mankind, even while you claim to be an athiest.

 

After talking about morality I would like to talk about the existance of God.  I am purposefully not immediately coming to some of your things like mysogeny as your presuppositions mean that even if I dealt with that you would not accept anything I say and it would not make any difference.  So I do want to get there, I just want to question some of your presuppositions first.

 

Would it be ok if this discussion remained just between the two of us?  The reason being that I cannot meaningfully  have a discussion with several people at the same time going off in different directions - which has happened a lot here.  If your not comfortable with that then fine, but I will restrict my replies to you as much as possible.

 

Trevor

 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Simon Paynton on October 22, 2011 at 7:04am

Trevor:  the iron fist in the velvet glove.  I like it.  Thanks for setting out your position on morality.  It gives me something to work on.  I possess a set of objective moral principles, which I developed for myself out of necessity.  It is not necessary to invoke God (or rather, Jesus, since God is somewhat capricious) to achieve moral objectivity.  Like I said before though, I agree that Richard Dawkins is somewhat stumped on this point.  As for the Old Testament, it says whatever you want it to say.  And for me, "salvation" is ALL about what you do, and nothing else.

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Permalink Reply by Trevor on October 22, 2011 at 9:44am

Hi Simon, a sane voice!  Very welcome.

 

Can I take you up on your idea that you came up with your own objective moral standards.  By definition you cannot come up with your own objective moral standards, they are subjective - its what you feel and you think.  You are the source of your own morality.  And its not even moral standards in the sense of right and wrong, as Dawkins says (and Sam Harris) that its what is good for people and not good for people (in general).

 

Example, based on what your saying, you have to agree that for you the holocaust was wrong but its perfectly acceptable that for other people (Neo Nazi's) that it wasn't wrong, but even good.

 

An objective moral standard is one that is true even if no one believes it at a given time or place.  My proposition is that the holocaust was evil and morally wrong - even if the whole world went through a mad phase of believing that torturing and killing 6 million jews was a good thing.  Then I have to say that athiesm offers no possible rational for there being an absolute moral standard - and that theism is the best possible explanation.

 

Athiests live as if there is a God, as if there is an objective moral standard - even while they deny it.  God has written a moral code on every heart, you don't have to believe it in order to be true - but you can't help living as if its true.

 

Thats why Suzanne and co are outraged at what they think to be the moral evils of Christianity and the Bible.  Because they KNOW that murder and rape etc are objectively wrong - so they feel outrage when they believe Christians are guilty of the same.

 

Where as Suzanne and co should readily accept, if there is no objective moral standard, that, as their tribe of athiests are vastly in the minority, their opinion that the Bible is evil is pitifully weak, and even irrelevant.  Its just one small tribe (New Athiests)'s opinion that the vast majority of humanity does not share.

 

Let me know if I haven't been clear and need to unpack anything.

 

 

 

 

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