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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on April 4, 2011 at 11:14pm

When two drunk drivers cause an accident, both of them can be 100% responsible for it. It's not always a simple 50% + 50% responsibility. When you poke a hornet's nest while knowing that innocent bystanders are nearby, you can't just blame the hornets when people get stung.

There are two questions: 1) the legal question about free speech and whether it intentionally caused harm, and 2) whether it's morally acceptable or worthwhile (as in ends-justifies-means) to knowingly trigger murder and mayhem.

If the mayhem or death was intentionally caused in the U.S., I think Jones could be indicted. But it didn't happen in the U.S., so it can't be a free speech issue unless it's covered by international law.

Morally speaking, even if Karzai or Imams used Jones' act to whip up the mayhem, I don't see how one can absolutely say that Jones does not share any of the blame. There's more than enough blame to be shared, and it's wrong to ignore portions of it to make political or idealistic points.

It seems the biggest misunderstandings here come when people talk past each other without differentiating between the legal vs moral aspects, and when they speak in absolutes. The legal issues are separate from the moral issues, and each issue has its gray areas and imperfect prescriptions.

How does it help to escalate the mockery and the chasm between rivals? I think it's more effective to present positive examples of Western life, show how we like it, and show how we can help build with our power instead of destroy. I don't care how innately evil you think they are, marginalizing peaceful Muslilms from Mosques in America, and killing non-radical Muslims and whacking their hornets nests over there just makes it worse in the long run.

Burning a Koran could be a positive act if it wakes Muslim countries up to say "Yeah, hey, America's right, we're truly fucked up here and we need to mellow out!". But the opposite is what happens! They get angrier, and more fanatical and murderous! Fine, blame it solely on them, but it only makes the future worse. In fact the bigger question is "OK, so we should be afraid shitless of Muslims. So what? Now what should we do to mitigate the destruction instead of making it worse?"

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on April 6, 2011 at 2:17am

No, my point really was that there's no perfect formula or rule for determining blame or responsibility. I believe Jones chose to incite murder to prove that evil Muslims exists, so I blame him for banging on the hornets nest that he knew would cause it. I don't care how many other people are more to blame than him. Fine, say he's a small percent to blame; it still counts as a hateful, careless act that led to murder. His act was more morally evil than good. This isn't science or law, but just my moral judgement.

 

Once you let people off the hook for their actions, they can try anything and not be blamed.

Yes. People letting Jones off the hook also proves this point.

 

hate-filled idiots abound. Two wrongs don't make a right. 

I see no reason to absolve any hate-filled idiots who remorselessly trigger murder and destruction.

 

The harm caused by the killers was much more destructive than the burning of a single book. They didn't even take their anger out on the book burner - instead, they killed the first westerners they could find.

So Jones' act was less evil. How does that make it OK?

 

If the pastor had only spit on the Koran and they killed people in retaliation, would the pastor be to blame?

Yeah, if he knew it would trigger the murder of innocents. Again, I'm not saying equal blame. I'm saying more than 0% blame, and when it comes to murder as a result, that's very significant to me, morally.

 

What if he had only thrown the Koran in the trash, or laid the Koran on the floor?  If people are killed for this, is there still a gray area?

That starts to unrealistically stretch the hypothetical, unless it's realistic to expect it would lead to needless murder. If you're looking for some kind of fine line between black and white everywhere, I can't help you.

 

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Permalink Reply by Sassan K. on April 4, 2011 at 11:39pm

“They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them (the unbelievers) friends until they flee (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and KILL them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.” (Sura 4, verse 89).

“Men are superior to women because Allah has made so. Therefore good women are obedient, and (as to) those (women) on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and BEAT them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.” (Sura 4, verse 34).

“And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them, four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.” (Sura 4, verse 15).

“Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.” (Sura 4, verse 34)

O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time then call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other.” (Sura 2, verse 282).

“Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.” (Sura 2, verse 223).

“O you who believe! do not go near prayer until you have washed yourselves; and if you have touched women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.” (Sura 4, verse 43).

"The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." (Book #6, Hadith #301)

Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of 'Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cut off by (passing of an) ass, woman, and black Dog. I said: O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog? He said: O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as you are asking me, and he said: The black dog is a devil. (Book #004, Hadith #1032)

(54) Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar : The Jews brought to the Prophet a man and a Woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque." (Book #23, Hadith #413)

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status. her beauty and her religion, so try to get one who is religious, may your hand be besmeared with dust. (Book #008, Hadith #3457)

AbuHuraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: woman is like a rib. When you attempt to straighten it, you would break it. And if you leave her alone you would benefit by her, and crookedness will remain in her. A hadith like this is reported by another chain of narrators. (Book #008, Hadith #3466)

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Permalink Reply by Sassan K. on April 7, 2011 at 3:22am

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/04/06/400-death-threats-follow-...

“We’ve had about 400 death threats,” he said, adding that Hezbolla, the Shia Muslim militant group, had put out a “reward out on my head for $2.4 million.”

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Permalink Reply by Pope OoO (Out of Order) on April 7, 2011 at 12:56pm

Let's hope he hasn't triggered serious retaliation here in America.

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