I know this is a provocative question but it has to be asked.  What would happen if a group of people went out in the street and burned a Bible and a Torah?  How would people feel.  Burning the Koran was stupid, but its a stretch to say that nut in Florida needs to share the blame for what happened in Afghanistan today. 
What do you think the reaction be to the burning of Christian and Jewish holy books in this country would be?

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You're right, I apologize. It is utterly frustrating to hear the apologists of Islam. Still, as a rationalist we must control our emotions as if we don't, we start becoming "irrational".
Oh man bold caps, that must mean it is really important.

His first responsibility is the upkeep of the raison d'etre of the UN. His second responsibility is the safety of his people. When these come into conflict what to say is clear cut.

Fyi, the demands of his resignation by foreign ministers have already started.

That's fine, a symbolical gesture. The next one will do exactly the same. It's called diplomacy.

Certain values we cannot give up as barganing chips. As long as a restriction of free speech (or any other fundamental right) is a demand from the opposing forces, no diplomatic resolution is possible.
As members of the international community, we have the right and duty to tell Muslims that they must adhere to a basic tenets of human rights as human rights is an inherent part of humanity from the moment we are born into this world. We have a right to not only let them know we demand a basic tenets of human rights, it is our DUTY to demand that they adhere to these basic internationally recognized set of human rights and if they don't and human rights violations become gross, it is our duty to enforce these rights as leaders of the free world. Therefore, they have no right to change our laws or to start dictating to us civilized people what is right or wrong, our model and standard is what allows humans to have the basic dignity of living in freedom regardless of creed, race, or nationality.

thats just it , we keep basing discussions on a faulty premis. The premis that the book in question is in fact "holy".

That is what needs to be addressed. A bible , a tora, or a koran are just books. just books of stories. Now if you lived on a little island in the ocean and you had a { everything you need to know about how to survive on a little island} book and you burned it that would be just terrible, that would be so much more important than the burning of any or these works of fiction we are talking about. besides there are millions of copies of these fairytales so loosing one more is really no big deal if you have the capacity to veiw your world objectively.

 we need to stop giving these books power because they have none on their own...

If you are not scared shitless of Islam, perhaps the great fearmonger Neil deGrasse Tyson might make you:

ur right.. and the best way to keep our service members safe is to bring them home.. whatta ya think? 

People would be pissed, of course.


Honestly, I'm not against the burning of the holy books as symbols. But I would have a problem with burning them as an attempt to get rid of them entirely. I feel like, even when religion and superstition are finally dead and gone, we should maintain record of them, for informational purposes. But going out and burning a single bible as a symbol is something I'd support. Burning a massive pile of them...that's unnecessary. Just one is enough to prove your point.


On this subject, anyone see that the US military had a bunch of bibles burned?

Sura (4:74) – "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Sura (4:56) - "(As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise."

Sura (4:76) – "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Sura (8:12) – "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Sura (9:29) – "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sura (9:123) – "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

From the Hadith:

Muslim (1:33) – the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) – Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’”

Ibn Ishaq: 992 – "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."
When two drunk drivers cause an accident, both of them can be 100% responsible for it. It's not always a simple 50% + 50% responsibility. When you poke a hornet's nest while knowing that innocent bystanders are nearby, you can't just blame the hornets when people get stung.

There are two questions: 1) the legal question about free speech and whether it intentionally caused harm, and 2) whether it's morally acceptable or worthwhile (as in ends-justifies-means) to knowingly trigger murder and mayhem.

If the mayhem or death was intentionally caused in the U.S., I think Jones could be indicted. But it didn't happen in the U.S., so it can't be a free speech issue unless it's covered by international law.

Morally speaking, even if Karzai or Imams used Jones' act to whip up the mayhem, I don't see how one can absolutely say that Jones does not share any of the blame. There's more than enough blame to be shared, and it's wrong to ignore portions of it to make political or idealistic points.

It seems the biggest misunderstandings here come when people talk past each other without differentiating between the legal vs moral aspects, and when they speak in absolutes. The legal issues are separate from the moral issues, and each issue has its gray areas and imperfect prescriptions.

How does it help to escalate the mockery and the chasm between rivals? I think it's more effective to present positive examples of Western life, show how we like it, and show how we can help build with our power instead of destroy. I don't care how innately evil you think they are, marginalizing peaceful Muslilms from Mosques in America, and killing non-radical Muslims and whacking their hornets nests over there just makes it worse in the long run.

Burning a Koran could be a positive act if it wakes Muslim countries up to say "Yeah, hey, America's right, we're truly fucked up here and we need to mellow out!". But the opposite is what happens! They get angrier, and more fanatical and murderous! Fine, blame it solely on them, but it only makes the future worse. In fact the bigger question is "OK, so we should be afraid shitless of Muslims. So what? Now what should we do to mitigate the destruction instead of making it worse?"


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