One thing that that really get's to me is theist who think they have the right to not be offended and all people who enable this behaviour.
I find it hard to find a theist who will have an open discussion about why they believe in a personal god at all or why they think their god is real and all the other ones aren't. Yesterday I remarked on the hypocritical nature of the followers of xtianity and was met with no argument as to why what I said was wrong but that it was rude. When I asked why it was considered rude I was told that I should have respect for peoples religion. I disagree, I'll respect your right to have religion, by all means believe whatever crackpot fairy tales you like but if you are not willing to be offended and stand up for what you believe in then you need to take a serious look into why that is.
Most of the theists I know don't argue because they do not even care weather or not their god exists, they go to church on Sunday and go about their lives as if they were Atheists. But I know there are theists out there who might care but are too afraid of being offended by talking to an evil non believer so they just tell you that you are rude.
Are people just being too polite or am i really too insensitive?
They are deeply emotionally invested in these beliefs. You are not in yours. This is why they get offended so easily and why it is hard for atheists to comprehend. I agree it is an over-reaction, but I think it is the nature of the brainwashing.
The question is, "would the world be a better place without religion"? If the answer is yes one might ask what the best way to achieve that would be.
I have two answers:
1.) A rigorous scientific education that includes mathematical literacy
2.) Overt deconversion
I hear this very often from deconverts. Typically, from the first epiphany and serious conversations they have about atheism, like what you are beginning now, they seem to take a few months to get where it sounds like you want to be.
And can you really blame them? Religion is intensely emotional and the investment is huge and overwhelming. It touches every fiber of your being. Gradually, like any habit, these thoughts will fade and there will be this wonderful stage where you realize for the first time you are truly objective. And I mean truly objective. You are not atheist but you are also not an adherent. Then you know you'll never go back. You don't know what "kind" of atheism you're drifting toward, but you are drifting away from a faith-based belief system. If anything, deconverts should give themselves enough time to get to that point. If they want to go back they can.
I undersatnd what you are saying I too sometimes feel like I am bad or evil or that satan is attacking me and I have let him influence me..but then I always tell my self that is how sick religion is.. that is how bad its goten .....they say we are not suppose to question it.. if we do we are going to hell and we are evill... and that helps me realize tha it cant be real...but thats me persoanlly thanks for shareing im glad im not the only one
Of course you're not, David - there are thousands and thousands of you out there, and if you count Muslims who want to break free, possibly millions.
its hard but logic and reason .. are key .. but knowing how to approch the subject when talking to belivers is something we all need to learn.. thanks!
i think that its the argument . ... we need to find a good one... becuse .. its hard to argue with them ..we need to find a good argument that we could use.. their argument is simple we already kno what it is (religous folks) .. .... I read some where that we shouldnt go after thier god but instead we should go after thier faith using the socratic method.... .me personally im tierd of discussing god with them but I have been going after disproving god and i think thats where i went about it the wrong way ......im going to try to go after thier faith .. instead... becuse iit does offend me too .... . ... any ideas on good arguments... i have a few i read about
There are plenty of good arguments. I wouldn't even know where to start. I find it terribly easy to argue with "them" but impossible to get it to sink in. It takes time for someone to work through the arguments and come to reason.... and the person has to be willing to do so.
as new commers we need examples becuse most faith based folks are passionate about thier fiath .. and if we dont approch it right it could blow up in our face.. and they will just think .... hey this devil dudes just trying to quesiton my faith .. what a jerk... hah
Ill give you an example one is to allow them to talk about their faith and let them tell you where it stems from it will usually be their parents or church ..then agree… you have to seem like you are genuine try to learn why they chose their religion … like Christianity …. After you here their case say I agree with you and if there is a god I would do as he said and would want to obey him to avoid going to hell…so im going to go with you that I belive you and there is a creator.. also I have to assume that this creator didn’t just create the universe then leave it up to us…... he is a communitive god.. he is a published author. one that has inspired humans to write text that tells his or her story… … right….. well also get them to agree that only one religion was inspired by the all mighty.. and all others come from no where but human minds imaged by humans..… … .lets be on their side say I agree. With you so far…. but hthen say how can re really tell that those religions were made up by a human.. since there are 1000’s of fake ones..
\\\\we have to come with a test for holly-ness or a test for lack of holly-ness…so lets look at some fake religions(non Christian) and find figure out that they are man made…first a fake story would have inaccurate base of earths layout… right… 2nd lets look to its orgins and see if it waspieced together its contents by previous earlier religions… so lets look at a fake one.. the greeks claim that sun god helius is pulling the sun across the sky and since we kno that suns stays stationary well we kno that religion is human made. Right? Yes… /.. then go into another and so one.. about how another was pieced together.. then once they agree that those are fake .. we talk about how .. then let then agree ..so a made up religion shows … cluelessness of the universe design .. 2nd records show that it at least barrowed some stuff from other religions .. and that how we can tell its man made.... … then ..now we go to Christianity.. .religion.... and say hey well ……(hahahah) the earth bound perspective in the bible dosnt show any knowledge of how; night and day come to be (the earth turning on its axis) .....also it refers to tiny stars.... and we now know that stars a billions of times bigger then our own planet.. no awareness that our planet moves at all in the bible….( the bible Is just like the other.s it shows a earth layout that is only known by ancient civilzations’)… then... go into how many stories... are barrowed in the bible... like the great flood.. stolen from india .. etc.
so no more arguing just asking questions this is the Socratic method somewhat . but we nee more of these ..
Ben, in most of my conversations with theists, it's not the person I'm debating with that I'm really communicating with-- It's the people sitting on the sidelines listening. I stay calm and friendly, and let my behavior and arguments contrast with those of the person I'm talking with.
The real fertile ground is with the bulk of theists who have more passive belief.
i totally agree. no christian knows why they believe what they do. "i have faith i have faith" okay, i have faith that the toothfairy exists. they need to grow up and realize that just because they feel something doesnt make it right.
Even though faith is not proof, it ties their emotions to their beliefs, and the more they invested in that belief, the stronger the bond. Simply telling them they are wrong, doesn't really work. The best we can do is show them the evidence against their belief, and hopefully they will do the rest.
they need to grow up and realize that just because they feel something doesnt make it right.
By looking at your profile picture on here, I would assume that is your boyfriend. Now, I also assume you love him. Love is a feeling, chemical reaction.
What would your reaction be if I told you that you don't love your boyfriend. That you need to grow up and realize that because you feel something, doesn't make it right.
You will argue that you do love him, and that you "know" you love him. Religion is a relationship... an invisible foursome if you will (You, Father, Son, Holy Ghost). Just like love, it is a feeling, and therefore cannot be argued like that. You will never convince someone that what they feel is wrong. You will have much more luck explaining to them why what they feel is misplaced, by showing them evidence that their belief holds no water when compared to real world evidence.