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Permalink Reply by Elon Johnson on June 2, 2013 at 1:31pm

You are totally right, and I don't think any atheist would think in black and white terms. You cannot judge a person by one characteristic only, but this is one think that is true: "A religous person can do bad things BECAUSE of religion, whereas an atheist cannot do bad things BECAUSE of atheism".

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Permalink Reply by Strega on June 2, 2013 at 2:00pm

Demeaning a person verbally is definitely bad.  Anything you do that has the impact of making people do or feel better is good, although not if it harms others.  Look at the Golden Rule - Do unto others as you would wish them to do unto you.

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Permalink Reply by Strega on June 2, 2013 at 2:16pm

There is a fine line between demeaning the person and demeaning their philosophies.  Also, many members here have had bad experiences with religion - some are still angry about that.  When theists come here, they can't be expecting cuddles - but we try to be reasonable.

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Permalink Reply by Elon Johnson on June 3, 2013 at 12:38pm

Yes, it is bad, but you don't demeaning a person because of your atheism. There is no doctrine that tells you to ridicule the religous people, but there are doctrines that mandates you to KILL the unbelievers.

Can you do bad things while being an atheist? Yes, but there is a big difference between: I did this bad thing and it happens that I am an atheist (Zedong/Hitler) than I did this bad thing because I am a religous (9-11/Crusades).

Also, we have to take into account that there is no way that religous people are the victims here. You are not going to be killed for believing, but you can be killed for not believing. Look that I didn't say theist, I said religous. Believing in god is not wrong, imposing your views (Muslim countries, Republicans not separating state and church), have privilages (churches not paying taxes, house of lords in UK), and denigrating a minority (Gay, atheists, racial minorities) that is wrong.

Strega says that some of us are still angry with religion. I say that is immoral not to be angry at it. Don't you read the news? Every single day there is a story about the godly doing something terrible wrong. Kids being raped, girls being cut the genitals, soldiers being beheaded by muslim extremist, a Republican saying that evolution is false, global warming is a hoax and this person is appointed to the Science Committee. I don't know if you want a better future for humanity, but religion creates evil that otherwise wouldn't be done.

Finally, I want to say again that the problem is with actions, not ideologies. I have only one atheist friend, my great tennis coach is Christian, my whole family is religous, and I don't have a problem with them. People who follow the Bible, Quaran, etc. can do good things BECAUSE religion, but I don't think it is worth discussing because everyone know is true and it is good that it is happening. The reason I discuss the evil side of religion is because I am sure that it has to change and without discussion it will never change.

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Permalink Reply by Stodius on June 2, 2013 at 1:52pm

There are good and bad religious people, just as there are good and bad atheists.

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Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on June 2, 2013 at 2:16pm

There are also the regular theists that seem to claim “goodness” as something only believers are capable of. They have no concept of how offensive that is to non-believers.

Many only do good deeds because they are commanded to or to please their god. They can never be as altruistic as people who do “good” to help others for no reward. Non-believers have no expectation of a reward. They are not collecting “brownie points”.

 There are plenty of Christians and Muslims that do noble work around the world who also do not expect to be rewarded. They are “good” people but would be so if they had no faith.

I have never thought that people are “bad” just because they are religious. The demands of church elders, irrespective of their creed, have often made “good” people do terrible things in the name of their god. They will kill in the name of their god because they are delusion allows them to believe they are doing so in his blessing.

What is wrong with being judgemental of people’s actions? Does it make me close-minded to judge the pope by his actions on covering up child abuse? I will skip the long list of other examples…..

Xians teach not to be the first to judge yet they never stop judging me. I have lost count of the number of times I have been damned to their hell by them for not believing what they believe. I will point out the “badness” of their actions any chance I get, as my judgements and standards are much higher than theirs.

Religion can make good people “bad”.

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Permalink Reply by Ward Cressin on June 2, 2013 at 10:05pm

I watched the video you linked to. I know everyone (including myself) can do/say something stupid but it always amazes me when someone says something like what  Ravi Zacharias said in response (to Richard Dawkins). He dares Mr. Dawkins go to Saudi Arabia or Iran and say we should ridicule religion implying that Mr. Dawkins would be met with violence and that he would enjoy that result. Mr. Zacharias doesn't see how he is portraying Muslims as violence prone and himself as petty and vindictive.

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Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on June 2, 2013 at 3:02pm

Leaders? Do Atheists have leaders? I demand an audience at once!!

Atheism has no pure intentions or teachings. Some Atheists are bad people but the majority of us are terrific human beings!!

I believe the world would be a better place without religion but people can only become better people if they make the effort. I never (ok seldom) judge people or mock them as individuals because of what they believe. They do however hold me and my views in contempt. Why would they feel mocked and scorned because I think differently or criticize their poor behaviour?

I do not ridicule theists with contempt. Criticizing their actions or the beliefs is different though I will say that many of them see this as ad hominem. That is because they cannot distinguish their “self” from what they believe.

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Permalink Reply by Strega on June 2, 2013 at 3:35pm

Untaught... not taught.

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Permalink Reply by Strega on June 2, 2013 at 3:53pm

Once you accept something as fact that you have been taught is fact from a very early age - it is much harder to unlearn that - it shakes your self perception quite badly.  The effort to then unlearn that, and learn something different is compounded.  If you start without that kind of child indoctrination, then you do not have to unlearn anything. 

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Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on June 2, 2013 at 4:32pm

I was an Atheist long before the “Four Horsemen” rode into town. Atheism is only cited as “another religion” by people who do not understand what the term means. There is NO belief system.  To use another clique – Atheism is a religion just like not collecting stamps is a hobby.  Theists have a book full of cliques. My ideas are formed from many sources and the ability to use critical reason and to think freely about what I have learnt from my inquiries.

“and yet ridicule with contempt those who might BE our audience”? Did I? Could I have an example of something "good" a Theist can do that an Atheist cannot?

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Permalink Reply by Elon Johnson on June 3, 2013 at 12:46pm

It walks like a duck, talks like a duck, but how can we say it's NOT A DUCK when it acts like one?


Tell me the last time someone killed in the name of atheism. If it is a religion this should have happened?

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