So when I was working today my openly gay boss came back while doing some back of the house work, and naturally we engaged in some conversation. I just found out he was gay the other day, and I just couldn't believe until he told me.  A matter of fact, he even called himself a "fagot" never ever thought I'd hear that.  I have theory onto where the word fagot came from.  Possibly humorous in nature or offensive, but that's a different story for a different day.

Anyways, I am a new born Agnostic I guess you could say, still kinda fence sitting betweem Atheism and Christianity, but I feel more drawn to Atheism every day...and Gary's case only solidifies it.  Gary was once married, had kids, and in fact married to this woman longer than he was openly gay.  He says always kinda knew he was, but just kinda ignored...but his mid life crisis rolled around and thats when he told her what was up.  I can't really imagine what it would be like to go through all that, on his wife, kids, and even Gary. It'd be difficult situation, especially considering they were married for 15 years.  

Anyways so me and Gary got into the topic about Gay marriage...and we both agree it's not so much the word married that grinds our gears, but rather the "rights" part of it.  Why shouldn't a partner be beside each other when one is about to pass?  Especially after 30 years of partnership, these kinda things came from Gary, and I heartfully agree with him.  Because marriage is a religious thing, and chances are even in East Tennessee, a homosexual person isn't going to be super religious (however with the slight growing acceptance of homosexuality among some denominations, that could change).  So therefore the word marriage is meaningless, it's simply the rights part of it.  He said he could care less about a tax deduction. Love is love.  Agreeable.

Anyways I'm getting off topic, so I told him I'm accepting of gay, lesbian people in my community, however I can't quite wrap my head around the bisexual thing...and he said that's good but disagreed about the bisexual thing and stated "Lot's of creatures are homosexual, take the mental part out of it...what are we Nathan?" I just looked at him, confused as if he was insinuating something "Animals!"
So true so I reply "Yeah but the difference between us and dog is the ability to reason..."
then this truly was an interesting " I guarantee you evolution wouldn't fail on this one, if I go out there grab...well your an employee, if i go out there and grab a male customer by the balls, he's going to get an erection...so were technically bisexual by nature" By the way this mainly came up because I asked him if he enjoyed sleeping with a woman...apparently he did, because as far as I'm concerned, pressure is pressure. be it being a woman's part, male's buttocks. or your own holy hand.

But the notion that we are all born bisexual kinda left a note on my mind. I'm in fact a heterosexual male, and gary stated while we may not like mentally, our body most likely would not be able resist such actions, and reactions...what do you guys think? and sorry I know this is a mouthful.

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I was just looking for a definition, that is all. There is nothing pointless in having a word defined, and all you had to say is that for sex as lesbians there is no definition.
There is a definition; it is just, perhaps, much broader* than you would prefer.

*no pun intended
@Kris, you are simply not going to get a neat, precise definition for sex. It's totally subjective. For some, simply thinking about any loosely defined sexual act, is the same as having sex. There is no "universal understanding of sex."
There is a universal understanding of heterosexual sex. For homosexuals sex becomes a lot more vague and into the realm of "Whatever works".
Christ. I'm surprised Bill Clinton isn't here debating how anything but a single type of act is considered "sex", therefore he is not guilty of perjury.

Is sex really that narrowly defined? I wonder if people would think the same if their girlfriend were out not having sex while some guy performed some amazing oral on her?
Words have definitions for a reason Reggie, without that every word is open for translation and means nothing. I don't care what lesbians do which they refer to as sex, as long as I know whatever it is, is than we can have some definition.


I find gays to be interesting in this manner, in some respects they are quite outward and prideful with themselves. In others they shy away and say things like "what does it matter what we call sex". It should not be offensive that you need a plastic toy to have sex as lesbians, I just wanted to know if you call that sex or if you have to write out the full act to explain what went down.

If "sex" to a lesbian is
A.) Mutual masturbation
B.) Oral sex / mutual oral sex
C.) Sex with a strap on
D.) Manual masturbation
E.) Any or all of the above and more

Than for a lesbian to say "I had sex last night" is a terribly non descriptive statement whereas for gay males and hetero couples it's a very succinct statement.
Words have definitions for a reason Reggie, without that every word is open for translation and means nothing. I don't care what lesbians do which they refer to as sex, as long as I know whatever it is, is than I can have my definition.

Well, no shit. But anyone familiar with language understands just how ambiguous it is. Every word really is open for translation or interpretation. Especially as we argue finer points. You consider sex to be very narrowly defined. Great! But what do YOU call all the stuff in between hugs and sex?
Affection, adoration, etc. What else would you call them? Lesser intimate acts?
Affection, adoration, etc. What else would you call them? Lesser intimate acts?

Same as what most would call kissing grandma on the cheek? Wow. That leaves a lot to be desired. Want to try again?
@Kris again,

Wow, you're not that familiar with linguistics and semiotics are you?

There's a reason there are multiple definitions for nearly every word in the dictionary. Words' meanings change over time and actually language is hotly contested in every society.

There's a reason that there are NOT perfect substitutes for many words from language to language.

Who needs more specificity when people are involved in intimate acts that don't affect you? I speak a language where the subject is almost never articulated, but derived from the context.

I'm just gonna throw in the towel. I honestly do not care one bit what sex is defined as for different groups, what matters is that people are consenting and communicate and hopefully being safe.

And I know A LOT of people for whom oral sex is not a lesser intimate act than intercourse. For many people it is on the same level or even possibly more intimate.
Is there a single act

No, because we're not all the same. We cannot be neatly defined under a "default heterosexual label". Which is any woman, regardless of sexual orientation.

Intercourse isn't pleasurable/satisfying for a large number of women. So if there is a heterosexual woman with vaginismus who cannot tolerate penetration or even just has a disinterest in penetration, does this mean she doesn't have sex? No, and it is rather silly to insinuate so. Many sexual acts can simply be described as sex...because it IS sex.

But then there's the fact that when whatever one does with their partner(s) is completely satisfying, they're probably not going to give a damn what someone else thinks it should be called!
I'm simply trying to have some sort of value to the word sex. If there was a trial and someone said two males were having sex there would be no need to further clarify. A male and a female having sex, again there would be no need to clarify, however two females would require clarification as there is no value to a word with such a wide variety of definitions.

You're saying any act with mutual satisfaction qualifies as "sex" and I think that even further destroys the value of the word. I would find mutual satisfaction making out with my fiancee, but I would not walk away from that saying we had sex. I am not trying to "neatly define" as you put it anyone however I am trying to neatly define the words you are using to describe your actions.

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