So when I was working today my openly gay boss came back while doing some back of the house work, and naturally we engaged in some conversation. I just found out he was gay the other day, and I just couldn't believe until he told me.  A matter of fact, he even called himself a "fagot" never ever thought I'd hear that.  I have theory onto where the word fagot came from.  Possibly humorous in nature or offensive, but that's a different story for a different day.

Anyways, I am a new born Agnostic I guess you could say, still kinda fence sitting betweem Atheism and Christianity, but I feel more drawn to Atheism every day...and Gary's case only solidifies it.  Gary was once married, had kids, and in fact married to this woman longer than he was openly gay.  He says always kinda knew he was, but just kinda ignored...but his mid life crisis rolled around and thats when he told her what was up.  I can't really imagine what it would be like to go through all that, on his wife, kids, and even Gary. It'd be difficult situation, especially considering they were married for 15 years.  

Anyways so me and Gary got into the topic about Gay marriage...and we both agree it's not so much the word married that grinds our gears, but rather the "rights" part of it.  Why shouldn't a partner be beside each other when one is about to pass?  Especially after 30 years of partnership, these kinda things came from Gary, and I heartfully agree with him.  Because marriage is a religious thing, and chances are even in East Tennessee, a homosexual person isn't going to be super religious (however with the slight growing acceptance of homosexuality among some denominations, that could change).  So therefore the word marriage is meaningless, it's simply the rights part of it.  He said he could care less about a tax deduction. Love is love.  Agreeable.

Anyways I'm getting off topic, so I told him I'm accepting of gay, lesbian people in my community, however I can't quite wrap my head around the bisexual thing...and he said that's good but disagreed about the bisexual thing and stated "Lot's of creatures are homosexual, take the mental part out of it...what are we Nathan?" I just looked at him, confused as if he was insinuating something "Animals!"
So true so I reply "Yeah but the difference between us and dog is the ability to reason..."
then this truly was an interesting " I guarantee you evolution wouldn't fail on this one, if I go out there grab...well your an employee, if i go out there and grab a male customer by the balls, he's going to get an erection...so were technically bisexual by nature" By the way this mainly came up because I asked him if he enjoyed sleeping with a woman...apparently he did, because as far as I'm concerned, pressure is pressure. be it being a woman's part, male's buttocks. or your own holy hand.

But the notion that we are all born bisexual kinda left a note on my mind. I'm in fact a heterosexual male, and gary stated while we may not like mentally, our body most likely would not be able resist such actions, and reactions...what do you guys think? and sorry I know this is a mouthful.

Views: 2153

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

I agree with this logic, and it's similar to the absurd argument that if a woman is turned on during a rape, that it wasn't rape, because she responded to the stimulus. A lot of women experience a violation of their mental stability during a rape because their body sort of betrays them in the act, and they feel horribly guilty afterward, not even positive they were raped because of this very askew logic. Similarly, a lot of people don't believe men can be raped because their bodies will almost always respond to the stimulus of a woman, therefore making it consensual. But as you pointed out, mental and physical willingness are not one in the same.

I don't believe everyone has a secret gayness about them, but I do think that humans should naturally be more open to bisexuality than they currently are, and that he major culprit of the discrimination of gays has a mix to do with both religion and instinct conflicting with our conscience. There's obviously nothing *wrong* with gays, but the basic instinct for sex is to procreate and gays cannot do that in a homosexual union, which violates the most basic principle for sex. Humans have sex for pleasure above procreation, and religion tends to naturally discriminate against unnecessary pleasure by default, so to me it follows that it would naturally condemn something that goes against both of those things and ranges into indulgence of excess, which I've heard a lot of Christians consider homosexuality. Almost like they are having sex purely for pleasure and not for the mental attachment, and that the emotional attachment can be fulfilled without sex, therefore the sexual union and want for marriage is simply for pleasure sake.

Anyway. . .

I don't know where my mind went, that was pretty crazy. Sorry.
The rape analogy is a good one and I wish I'd thought of it. Perfect example!
In the context of Western civilisation, I have serious issues with our skewed views of rape and pedophelia. Humans at puberty are ready for procreation, it has a been a biological truth since the dawn of humanity. When parents neglect to properly educate their children, this results in teenagers with split personalities, their bodies say one thing but their mind says another. This "duality" is completely a consequence of our Abrahamic culture.

IMO and IME there is no such thing as arousal when a properly educated human (teens and adults) is raped. If one does not consent, the fight should be to the death. And in so fighting, there is no biological availability for arousal. I have been nearly raped on three occasions in my life, and in neither case was there anything near arousal, for I fought back every single instant.

I do concede that people who are improperly educated about their sexual bodies have a difficult challenge to face, as their bodies are in conflict not only during the rape but in their every day life. This daily conflict can be as harrowing as any rape.

I was thought that if someone is not respecting my boundaries, I fight back, til the issue is no longer. One day that may mean I die of it, but I can garantee the agressor will not be un-marked. It is also a biological truth that a vast majority of "within species" violence is programmed to bear the least consequence possible. Agressors only agress because they know they can get away with it. This imbalance in human beings is a sad state of affairs. We ALL need to learn to fight back better.
I agree with you totally. I often don't understand why people would just lay down and die. having been in a few near death situations i learned that i will do anything to stay alive.
i think you lack some serious skills in deciphering what humans are. especially when it comes to sexuality. Which is the point i was trying to make about people giving their opinions on matters they know little about. You can not see the other spectrum of the discussion and have a strange view of mens sexuality compared to those of women. It's not your fault though its how life has programed our brains, not our genes to think this way. Of course not all people are going to want to have intercourse with the same sex. that doesn't change the fact that all people have these tendencies, which are apparent by the staggering numbers of those who switch later on in life.

I certainly don't fall into that category of over driven male testosterone. Your short sided look at men only puts down on yourself. You sound no different then the religious nuts who bash people based on the way they are. To say that homosexuality is a gene based disease, which is basically how you put it, is ridiculous. I say its a choice that people make because if it was a gene malfunction then how could it be present in so many. How would people be able to change as life goes on.

I can not be certain but for myself my wife and friends we generally agree it is a choice.
Doone posted
"Women and girls have my utmost sympathy - not only do they have to have sex with men but they have to put up with our stupidity at other times. I am firmly on the side of those who say that homosexuality is genetic. How can it be a choice? Only those condemned by their genes would want to have sex with men."

This is the basis for the statements,

"To say that homosexuality is a gene based disease, which is basically how you put it, is ridiculous."

I certainly don't fall into that category of over driven male testosterone.

Your short sided look at men only puts down on yourself.

You sound no different then the religious nuts who bash people based on the way they are.


Do you by any chance put words in our mouth none of us have intended?

I have not, but i do admit some statements are hard to follow, grammar, spelling, lack of words, but i am no stranger to bad english skills so i don't normally comment on it.

"I mean you have only our words to go on. You don't know how many experiences and how deep them have been."

Judging by what i have read I would say experience are very little. If there are experience that you can speak of i would love to hear about them and compare them to mine and see how we differ on the subject. If indeed you have had experiences then it must be because you have bisexual tendencies with either men or women. Depending on what your main sexual preference is.

@doone

No one said "To say that homosexuality is a gene based disease, which is basically how you put it, is ridiculous."

You said by stating, "How can it be a choice? Only those condemned by their genes would want to have sex with men."

I understand this is your core belief which is fine, but to many of you think this way and it often causes confusion in others. Which, I am glad you clarified your statement.

You can have all the experience you want in life, 45+ years are more and still not be able to make a correct claim. understanding what human being really are compared to what your mind has been programed to believe is two different things. I am not saying that it is bad programing because some like, programing to not kill, or hurt others, or cheat, lie and so on are helpful to a society as a whole. We may agree on somethings pertaining to this topic.

So again like you concluded with i am only commenting on the question myself. The bold generalization come from a lack of knowledge i am seeing pertaining to the subject. I stand by my statements on it not being a gene good or bad that causes homosexuality. We would all have this particular gene thus making us all have the tendency to be bisexual would we not.

Is it your choice to not be gay or is it a genetic flaw that causes you to only like one particular type of gender?
IMO the 'beauty' of 90% of the women you see a at least a partial consequence to a male dominated society where the pressure of beauty is so pervasive that most females comply to some degree, no matter our rebelliousness.

Whereas men, as the dominant sex, can chose to be as derelict and scruffy and overweight as he desires, and as long as he has money, he will find a wife. There is not so much of a social pressure for males in THIS society to take care of themselves.

Now in the past decade this has been changing and males are starting to feel the pressure of beauty probably in direct proportion to females requiring the same standards for their men taking care of themselves that they themselves have been expected to have for centuries, voir millenia.

As I mentioned I do not limit my tastes to one or two on a dancefloor, but I do want my man to take care of himself. And I'm glad that women are finally regaining control over our reproductive assets, even tho I myself will not procreate... :)
Frankly i dont see this as a discussion that is funny. I certainly don't see trying to friendly pick on someone as funny either. How old are you to try and pick and me. I don't care if it's in a friendly way or a hurtful way it's not funny and by saying its friendly you are being passive aggressive. There is nothing worse than a person who is passive aggressive and cant own up to what they really wanna say or do.

"Ooops, Michael Jon Axl will tell you that there are so many hetero that adamantly refuse to let their inner gay come out in full bloom"

Even though you claim to be joking you are taking blunt shots (and not the good kind) at what i have said, which doesn't involve this statement. I know all people will not be gay nor should all people aspire to be gay. That doesn't take away the fact that all people have the tendencies or can become bisexual.

A shame that you take to passive aggressive bull shit to further you agendas and promote your half thought out ideals on sexuality. A lack of knowledge and a lack of respect on two old-men part.
I don't really subscribe to the ageism theory of discrimination. I could care less about your age but the childish manner in which you discuss topics is interesting being as you both are older individuals. I said nothing about me disliking your age or discriminating on you based on your age.

Age is merely a number we give ourselves, it doesn't mean you get wiser or dumber as years go on. I would say most people don't change at all. We may learn a little more useless information but people don't gain more wisdom nor do they become inept.
And what does that mean.
@Fred
since you cannot grasp how blogging works i will make it formal for you.

I believe i was addressing James.

First i dont claim anything. I base my arguments on countless gay friends and my own life. Most people can tell I was talking to James as it dealt with things in his post. No need to try and attack me directly about not putting @whoever first.

"I've tested many times to see if I am gay and to my disappointment found that I am almost 95% Hetero."

This makes no since to me. Why would you test the theory. I never had to test the theory if i was gay or not. If you are attracted to men regardless of whether you can stomach being intimate you are by definition bisexual or gay. It is never the act of having sex that determines a persons sexuality.

No one is aware they are gay from birth. Biologically you don't even begin to form preferences to gender until you start to reach puberty. Some break the mold, just like some do by liking girls at young ages. Most of these acts are based on what we see our parents do or what we see on t.v. People become conflicted with issues based on their surroundings and find a need to explain why they feel the way they do.

I can understand the biology aspect that a gene must be responsible for being gay but it is highly unlikely. If this was true then by bilogy standards this gene would be passed down from generation to generation and if the father is gay then the son must be gay to. This is hardly ever the case. But if it was then it gives a new light to my argument that everyone is a little gay because, by now we all would carry the gene.

"Only post modern thinkers think one chose to be gay"

It is in fact a postmodern view that people have a genetic predisposition to be gay. Like it is a disease that can be cured. your statement would be correct if you said old world view.

"If I have tested since me 18 and now I am 65+ how many years more am I suppose to test if I am adamantly refusing the fact I've chosen to deny me being gay ?"

Again it makes no since to continue to test yourself on being gay or not. Your mind is made up on the subject by know i am sure. Just because you find the same sex attractive doesn't mean you will enjoy having sex or want to have sex.

"So at what age do you think one chose to be Gay? How many act of choices does it take? One time or two or three or does it take weeks or months or years?"

I would say it is up to the individual but i knew around the time most people become sexual inclined. Others dont realize or never think about it until the situation arises. Some do know from a very young age, but many lie about it to their friends to not seem different. which goes for many that have had thoughts about other men or women of the same sex.

"Is it like getting faith in God? Suddenly one feel the power of God and fall in love with Jesus? Just like that a one time epiphany moment of great insight? Wow me a believer."

hardly a good example. people who get faith in god have no change in who they are, they learn to appear different to others. people lie to themselves everyday. they base their lives on morals of others and ethical situations to arrive at a thought process that works for them and their friends and family. Life to many people is about fitting in with whatever circle they are in.

"Almost none of the men GaysI met under all those years and a few two or three of the Feminist Lesbians had chosed. All the rest was born that way and had no choice in it at all."

Again its not that they were born gay, we are born asexual until we begin puberty as biology tells us. We make up our minds as we go along, it is easy to say there is a gene inside of us to explain. Take the guy who never thought about being gay until one day he has a threesome and touches the other guys dick. Suddenly he is rushed with emotions and finds the feel and texture to be desired. he then continues to explore this side of himself and finds he enjoys both men and women and continues his life with both as sexual partners. Are we to believe that people have this gene that just turns off and on at will. If so then we all have a tendency to be gay like i have said before.

"Edit, reading through me text I guess me come out as teasing you"Yes I find your sureness very entertaining"


I would say yes you are trying to get under my skin by giving a half assed rebutal to something you obviously dont know much about. even though you claim to have been around the movement and know many gays.

"So I have no idea what you talk about."

This is because you dont know much about who you really are as a human. You base your life and teachings of others and the main stream idea of things without looking into yourself. This happens with most people.

i dont have the right answers for everything, but on some subjects i do have a more educated guess than others. this whole conversation just goes to show you that no matter what the topic over opinionated people will continue to try and explain something they know nothing about. Whic you have proven to me.

BTW I could care less if you pick on me. I have been picked on my whole life. I was to smart in school, called a nerd, when friends found out i was bisexual i was fag, because i chose to not believe in god i was a hethen ans so on. It never ends. People as a whole are ignorant, lazy and self absorbed, but a few individuals seem to make it through. I was actually hoping to find a few on here and have, but i would say that most are the same stubborn people around the net.
I understand you point but feel you have changed you opinion of the subject.

"But I don't trust that a majority of Gay have chosen to be that way at grown up age of 30 or so. All of those me met knew at 12 to 16."

I dont believe i have ever said that. In fact i said i knew around 12 myself. I agree that many make up their mind at young ages while others do it later in life. This to me has nothing to do with hormones or genetics. It is simply another life choice we make as we get older. It is no different then deciding what faith to be, at any moment you can switch sided. For many though it's a no-brainer and they stick with the first choice for a lifetime. There is nothing wrong with this or any other sexual preference, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that you and everyone else can be bisexual.

Take a look at prison life, or the life of a Hawaiian or Samoans, where being bisexual is the norm. well was the norm in Hawaii and Samoa until America and England screwed that up. But bisexuality is alive and strong in prison life. To curve sexual desire many, many men become bisexual while only in prison. Once they are released they generally turn back to being straight and remain that way. It is instances like these that is the reason why hormones and genetic theories of homosexuality are wrong. Science can not explain everything, that goes on in the human mind. At this point we are all so brainwashed with utter crap that we no longer have a clue to what our true nature is anymore.

RSS

Forum

Ear-piercing a baby

Started by Simon Mathews in Atheist Parenting. Last reply by Erock68la 7 minutes ago. 25 Replies

My Grandpa died last week

Started by Physeter in Small Talk. Last reply by Pope Beanie 1 hour ago. 9 Replies

Torture Report release today

Started by Unseen in Ethics & Morals. Last reply by Pope Beanie 3 hours ago. 134 Replies

Is There Any Ex-Mennonites or Ex-Amish On This Site?

Started by Jessica Miller in Advice. Last reply by Belle Rose 10 hours ago. 27 Replies

Why do we tolerate this?

Started by Belle Rose in Crime and Punishment. Last reply by Pope Beanie 19 hours ago. 25 Replies

Blog Posts

How did that happen?

Posted by Belle Rose on December 19, 2014 at 4:36am 6 Comments

Pabst Blue Ribbon to the rescue!

Posted by Ed on December 15, 2014 at 9:33pm 0 Comments

Services we love!

We are in love with our Amazon

Book Store!

Gadget Nerd? Check out Giz Gad!

Advertise with ThinkAtheist.com

In need a of a professional web site? Check out the good folks at Clear Space Media

© 2014   Created by umar.

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service