So when I was working today my openly gay boss came back while doing some back of the house work, and naturally we engaged in some conversation. I just found out he was gay the other day, and I just couldn't believe until he told me.  A matter of fact, he even called himself a "fagot" never ever thought I'd hear that.  I have theory onto where the word fagot came from.  Possibly humorous in nature or offensive, but that's a different story for a different day.

Anyways, I am a new born Agnostic I guess you could say, still kinda fence sitting betweem Atheism and Christianity, but I feel more drawn to Atheism every day...and Gary's case only solidifies it.  Gary was once married, had kids, and in fact married to this woman longer than he was openly gay.  He says always kinda knew he was, but just kinda ignored...but his mid life crisis rolled around and thats when he told her what was up.  I can't really imagine what it would be like to go through all that, on his wife, kids, and even Gary. It'd be difficult situation, especially considering they were married for 15 years.  

Anyways so me and Gary got into the topic about Gay marriage...and we both agree it's not so much the word married that grinds our gears, but rather the "rights" part of it.  Why shouldn't a partner be beside each other when one is about to pass?  Especially after 30 years of partnership, these kinda things came from Gary, and I heartfully agree with him.  Because marriage is a religious thing, and chances are even in East Tennessee, a homosexual person isn't going to be super religious (however with the slight growing acceptance of homosexuality among some denominations, that could change).  So therefore the word marriage is meaningless, it's simply the rights part of it.  He said he could care less about a tax deduction. Love is love.  Agreeable.

Anyways I'm getting off topic, so I told him I'm accepting of gay, lesbian people in my community, however I can't quite wrap my head around the bisexual thing...and he said that's good but disagreed about the bisexual thing and stated "Lot's of creatures are homosexual, take the mental part out of it...what are we Nathan?" I just looked at him, confused as if he was insinuating something "Animals!"
So true so I reply "Yeah but the difference between us and dog is the ability to reason..."
then this truly was an interesting " I guarantee you evolution wouldn't fail on this one, if I go out there grab...well your an employee, if i go out there and grab a male customer by the balls, he's going to get an were technically bisexual by nature" By the way this mainly came up because I asked him if he enjoyed sleeping with a woman...apparently he did, because as far as I'm concerned, pressure is pressure. be it being a woman's part, male's buttocks. or your own holy hand.

But the notion that we are all born bisexual kinda left a note on my mind. I'm in fact a heterosexual male, and gary stated while we may not like mentally, our body most likely would not be able resist such actions, and reactions...what do you guys think? and sorry I know this is a mouthful.

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I understand you point but feel you have changed you opinion of the subject.

"But I don't trust that a majority of Gay have chosen to be that way at grown up age of 30 or so. All of those me met knew at 12 to 16."

I dont believe i have ever said that. In fact i said i knew around 12 myself. I agree that many make up their mind at young ages while others do it later in life. This to me has nothing to do with hormones or genetics. It is simply another life choice we make as we get older. It is no different then deciding what faith to be, at any moment you can switch sided. For many though it's a no-brainer and they stick with the first choice for a lifetime. There is nothing wrong with this or any other sexual preference, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that you and everyone else can be bisexual.

Take a look at prison life, or the life of a Hawaiian or Samoans, where being bisexual is the norm. well was the norm in Hawaii and Samoa until America and England screwed that up. But bisexuality is alive and strong in prison life. To curve sexual desire many, many men become bisexual while only in prison. Once they are released they generally turn back to being straight and remain that way. It is instances like these that is the reason why hormones and genetic theories of homosexuality are wrong. Science can not explain everything, that goes on in the human mind. At this point we are all so brainwashed with utter crap that we no longer have a clue to what our true nature is anymore.
This doesn't prove your theory but proves mine.As mammals we all have thought systems that guide us to do the things we do. Our biological makeup can only tell us about how our body is made. the mind takes over and the body takes a back seat to the mind.

with that looking at this article it is easy to tell that animals like humans work basically the same way. without all the programming that we do animals have a much easier time adapting to the surroundings and choosing whatever kind of mate they want. The large difference between humans and animals is our larger brains, which have developed over time giving us more areas to store information. Unfortunately this causes us to store and over write many parts of our brain which causes us to lose a great deal of our original biological mindset.
You can not know me enough based on my reactions to your sureness."

But i can. People are not that hard to figure out. You could make one statement to sum up your philosophy on life. This is hardly a topic to distinguish your theology or philosophy on life so i give you that. I may have been to quick to say things. But, and there is always a but, I have heard no further arguments that you are not as i put it. Maybe some of these arguments need to have some back ground stories to go along with your post. It would certainly help in arguing your case. I usually never see arguments taken in that fashion. usually people just spout off, you don't know me, you can't possible know what i am like. This is true but until i see otherwise i am inclined to think the way i do. I certainly dont have a problem explaining my life and my choices however small they might be.

I certainly can be hasty at judgments but my first judgment of people is normally right. I have read and I do read all post pertaining to someone i am in discussions with. It is something i like to do to better understand my fellow human being. So i may not be as hasty as you think to judge. People can always redeem themselves on other topics, so i never count out a friendship based on one disagreement.
I think you might wish to revisit Bio 101, there are some serious fundamental flaws here that can be quickly quashed by cracking open a basic textbook . . . I really don’t know what else to say to this particular comment . . . ?!?"

My understanding of Biology 101 is quit clear, having just finished my fourth biology class in 5 years. It was just a general statement without going into much detail.

The author of the post asked: “What do you guys think?” Perhaps the next time a post is made on a subject such as this, the author should make it clear that the question is directed solely at authoritative and experienced educators such as yourself? "

My post was pointed to one person in particular.

"Easy, my friend. While most of us, I am sure, can sympathize with you on some level, if you approach communion and feedback from others with an attitude such as this, the only perception you will have is that you are being picked on when you are apparently not."

I never look for sympathy. I i do believe the guy posted that he didn't mean to pick on me which is what I was referring to, not that i think people always pick on me. I could care less I'm not in grade school anymore and i am quite capable of defending myself when i feel the need to, physically or mentally.
I am not sure if you have read all my post but i dont support the genetic claim. The statement was a broad generalization that a gay gene is ridiculous. These other forms of biological causes still dont explain the ultimate question of why or how. they are merely theories that will never be explained because it is impossible to tell scientifically. We in this rational world want to explain everything scientifically and many atheist look to biology to explain psychological reaction that stem from our thought process not a genetic mishap.

"I find it hard to believe that so many people would endure so much harassment and abuse, disownment, depression and even commit suicide over something that was merely a choice."

the same reason you wish to not believe in a god. Your choice is your choice no one should be allowed to take that away from you.
These other forms of biological causes still dont explain the ultimate question of why or how. they are merely theories that will never be explained because it is impossible to tell scientifically.

Never? How do you know this? Scientifically, I mean.

I'm just baffled when I see so many bisexuals declare that they know these things that other people don't know, or that it is all just a matter of personal choice. Am I misunderstanding your position?

Perhaps it's just a strange coincidence that I hear these declarations so often from bisexuals, so I'm still willing to call it anecdotal. Am I the only one here experiencing this? (And as I've mentioned before, I've also heard a lot of heterosexuals say it's "a choice", but their mind is made up that it's a God-given choice and "preference" is a bogus excuse to commit immoral acts.)

Btw at this time I lean toward an epigenetic explanation for sexual preferences, only because it makes the most sense. I could be wrong, and I'm willing to admit it.
As I see it, since there is same-sex sex in normal/average/typical animals in many other species, there is absolutely no need to find any special explanation for this behaviour in H. sapiens. We could all be in a situation of same-sex sex, therefore making us all biologically speaking bisexual.

Now if through their life experience, possibly the result of early childhood traumas, some people prefer (in a non choice way) to limit themselves to one sex, that's fine too. But this thread questions the possible extent of bisexuality... Bisexuality in practice does not mean we're sitting on a 50-50 fence of preference. It's simply a manner of being open and to all options. Bisexuals can have a 99% preference for same sex or not, it's of no importance. Bisexuality simply expresses a possibility.
But what evidence do you have, is it the same evidence where people go up to gays and say do you think you are genetically misinformed, inquiring minds would like to know. Most gays will actually say, because i actually have tons of gay friends and i am bisexual myself, they dont know. All they know is that they are gay and it feels right to them. Most are told know days like many others that it is genetic without any hard proof that it is. You have to study biology to know that animals and humans do many things that have nothing to do their body. It all comes from the mind.

But since you are so keen on biology and understand it well and know how to bring points to a argument to help your views. Lets take a look at transgenders. We all know what they are and how it occurs, but what about those that have both parts and still swing one way only. They have all the parts that would lead them to either side, there hormones and testosterone levels are through the roof, they have penis and vagina, some of them, they can grow breast and many appear to be feminine when actually they feel like men. Why is that when choosing partners they stick to one gender. Can not really explain that, maybe it's all psychological not a genetic or hormonal imbalance.
I don't think same-sex sex in the rest of the animal kingdom is a mind bend... in that sense we all have the biological potential built into us, but as humans in adulation of our fatally overactive brains, a preference can emerge from the subconscious in accordance with our brain's early experiences. Whether we act in accordance with our brain's pattern remains to be seen :) (as we see same sex preference only being acted upon later in life).

As far as the word hermaprhodite in H. sapiens goes, the word has been dropped as there are no examples of truly hermaphrodite humans. Which is why we speak now of intersex. As a curious person, if I ever meet an attractive person who has both a useable penis and a vagina and breasts, I would find it most beckoning to have a sexual encounter with that person :)
Sexual parts don't matter as much as what the brain is wired for. Few people here want to have sex with other animals. PLEASE don't tell me that anyone here could just "swing" that way as long as they have the parts?
IMO the word 'choice' gets much abused in these debates. I don't see choice as a polar opposite to a biological imperative at all. In fact, if a child had a traumatic experience which is affecting their sexual attraction pattern in life, I think the word 'choice' isn't appropriate at all. As you say, how could so many chose a life abusive comments, disownment, etc... Because it is NOT choice, once that trauma is imbedded in you, your life is no longer a choice. Of course not everyone behaves similarly in the face of trauma, but this trauma as a deciding factor in life is relevant not only in this topic but in very many aspects in life.

As a child I disliked teddy bears, and only played with barbies for surgery or tayloring. I loved playing with farm sets and as soon as I knew my new neighbors I was out there playing with the Tonka trucks in the dirt piles, and pedalling up gravel pit cliffs with the other boys. As a figure skater I was more like Sureya Boneli than Oxana Bayul, I was all power and no grace, which got me nowhere in figure skating, regardless of my strengths. I truly only discovered my feminine side at the age of 21 during Flamenco lessons! I hope there's never a gene found that predisposes to same sex attraction to any degree. I think life's experiences shape who we are and become and very rare are the humans who can concsiously deny their paths forever. Both my grandmother and mother who failed to imprint upon me subjugation or female ways, from the tenderest age, I think is what made me strong willed and irreverant to social stereotypes. And down the road, tho my mother was surprised at my sister and I's life choices, she should not have been. It is the way were raised, tho she did not realise. As they say, be careful what you wish for, especially as a parent...
I have heard you talk about the tramatic effects of people and how you think the word choice us a wrong one to use. You may be right about the word choice, but I think you are thinking of my use for the word to small. When i say choice i should say that the brain makes choices for you sometimes. Your subconcience can control the overall outcome of your view on life. While i agree that some people that experience traumas in their life and later decide to be a certain way based on that trauma, essentially it is still a choice to continue on that path.

When you talk about how you were growing up compared to how feminine you were your talking about a choice your brain made for you. It has nothing to do with biology but more to do with outside influence in the people you see. many men that act feminine act so based on how they perceive the world, It does make them gay no more than a girl being a tom boy.


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