So when I was working today my openly gay boss came back while doing some back of the house work, and naturally we engaged in some conversation. I just found out he was gay the other day, and I just couldn't believe until he told me.  A matter of fact, he even called himself a "fagot" never ever thought I'd hear that.  I have theory onto where the word fagot came from.  Possibly humorous in nature or offensive, but that's a different story for a different day.

Anyways, I am a new born Agnostic I guess you could say, still kinda fence sitting betweem Atheism and Christianity, but I feel more drawn to Atheism every day...and Gary's case only solidifies it.  Gary was once married, had kids, and in fact married to this woman longer than he was openly gay.  He says always kinda knew he was, but just kinda ignored...but his mid life crisis rolled around and thats when he told her what was up.  I can't really imagine what it would be like to go through all that, on his wife, kids, and even Gary. It'd be difficult situation, especially considering they were married for 15 years.  

Anyways so me and Gary got into the topic about Gay marriage...and we both agree it's not so much the word married that grinds our gears, but rather the "rights" part of it.  Why shouldn't a partner be beside each other when one is about to pass?  Especially after 30 years of partnership, these kinda things came from Gary, and I heartfully agree with him.  Because marriage is a religious thing, and chances are even in East Tennessee, a homosexual person isn't going to be super religious (however with the slight growing acceptance of homosexuality among some denominations, that could change).  So therefore the word marriage is meaningless, it's simply the rights part of it.  He said he could care less about a tax deduction. Love is love.  Agreeable.

Anyways I'm getting off topic, so I told him I'm accepting of gay, lesbian people in my community, however I can't quite wrap my head around the bisexual thing...and he said that's good but disagreed about the bisexual thing and stated "Lot's of creatures are homosexual, take the mental part out of it...what are we Nathan?" I just looked at him, confused as if he was insinuating something "Animals!"
So true so I reply "Yeah but the difference between us and dog is the ability to reason..."
then this truly was an interesting " I guarantee you evolution wouldn't fail on this one, if I go out there grab...well your an employee, if i go out there and grab a male customer by the balls, he's going to get an were technically bisexual by nature" By the way this mainly came up because I asked him if he enjoyed sleeping with a woman...apparently he did, because as far as I'm concerned, pressure is pressure. be it being a woman's part, male's buttocks. or your own holy hand.

But the notion that we are all born bisexual kinda left a note on my mind. I'm in fact a heterosexual male, and gary stated while we may not like mentally, our body most likely would not be able resist such actions, and reactions...what do you guys think? and sorry I know this is a mouthful.

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Dear me! so in your world, we need dual defintions for every act????????????

My mouth can eat meat but I'm really a vegatarian inside??? My eyes like horror movies but my mind prefers love stories... I could just go on and on!!!

The basis to life on earth is biological, and most of the language etymology that is used to describe sex IS BIOLOGICAL, because it's not just about humans, god humans are sooooo anthropocentric!, it's about all animals on earth. Frogs don't have sexual intercourse, they reproduce by amplexus, as many species do not reproduce via sexual intercourse. Now if people want to create a whole new set of defintions for the duality between their inner preferences and their biological exteriors/actions, then go ahead, but I get more than a little annoyed at people changing definitions to suit their personal experiences. If words don't have some sort of set meaning what's the point of a dialogue anyway?

To return to the food analogy... I would not say that liver grosses me out unless I had given it a try, or similarly I would not say that horror movies gross me out unless I'd given them an honest shot, same in music/song, same goes for sport, I would not say i am grossed out by roman grecco wrestling unless I had tried it, same thing for married women who've only ever seen their husbands' miniature penis saying they dont mind a small penis...

As atheists, I would think that one would require a certain degree of knowledge before expressing a any level of dislike for anything. Aren't we all supposed to be about knowledge????
I'm a biologist, and chose to leave my M.Sc. on frogs unfinished as I prefered to move onto other things in life, that is where the froggy talk came from :)

I say this from a person born into a world of biology and atheism, I do not believe in "mental" sexual attraction. I see that as a distortion of language. Sexual attraction is biological.

I may be mentally attracted to a male or female, but that won't be a sexual attraction, it's simply a mental attraction. A sexual attraction is when my groin aches for a person. If the groin talks, that's sexual, if the brain/"heart" is talking that is mental attraction, voir sentimental.

IMO we are animals first and foremost, I view a lot of our mental duress as species specific failure... we should be able to have sex with whomever with no mental duress whatsoever.
So we agree that bisexuality and homosexuality stems from the brain and its thought process not a genetic defect or biological hormones running crazy.

So when people are turned off by homosexuality or could never fathom doing such a act they are merely programed to think its wrong.
IMO we are born sexual beings, tho it remains subconcsious til a certain age (for me it was 7, tho I only hit physical puberty at 13). I've always felt that same sex attraction - whether or not it's the dominant pattern - is affected not by the conscious brain, but the brains developmental pattern. I feel we all have, more or less equally, that biological potential in us. Same-sex sex is within the H. sapiens species as a whole, it's only a matter of what life circumstances are thrown at us. As I think you've stated elsewhere that men who swore they were 100% hetero, that sex with another man was gross/disgusting to them, yet, will have male-male sex in a prison setting, then go back to sex with women upon exit. Yes we all have preferences, imprinted since childhood, but we all have both ways potential. Whether it's acted upon is not critical.
As I stated elsewhere, I have issues with the definition of rape, I do not agree with the negotiation aspect. To say that 22% of convicted criminally minded males are negotiating their safety by 'allowing' themselves to be 'raped' I think is an insult to intelligence!

I realise this will appear to you to be completely totally NON PC. These men's social programming is refusing to let them see the reality. They are taking a 'humiliated stance' on a normal human activity, which they themselves allowed, cyring rape is but an excuse. As I've stated elsewhere, it takes a damaged mind to 'accept' rape in exchange for perceived security. Pour souls, I pitty them really.

Now I'm not saying that prison male-male rape does not exist, only not in these numbers. There are those men who are gang raped under extreme force, but this is the minority of these cases. And any reasonable person eposed to this more than once should resort to violence to end it, with risk to their own lives to be understood.

(just to be equal opportunity here, IMO there are quite a few calls to rape from women in our society which are not truly as well, just as there are true cases of rape which are not reported due to shame, we can never know the numbers, for no one's definition and tolerance and defensive potential are identical. I realise no means no, BUT... IMO the word needs to be accompanied by action to be effective)
So much of this reasoning sounds bizarre to me, I don't know where to start. To be so sure of others not understanding reality, or proclaiming that a "damaged mind" is the explanation... I just don't know how to reason with that. I have to think more about this. (Btw it has nothing to do with appearing "PC" or not, at least for me.)

Men in prison display dominance, or become dominated. This dominance includes sexual dominance. Even some dogs hump legs as a display of dominance, but most dogs don't! Male on male sexual dominance (or submission, for that matter) is not how most men behave when not in prison. Why? Because it's NOT in their nature! LGBT behavior/preference is the exception, not the rule.
@ Paul
That's ok Paul, no offense taken, I'm used to being called bizarre! LOL I take it as a compliment.

You know some people complain that they find it impossible to conform to gender expectations... I find it impossible to confirm to any expectations! Gender expectations are the least of my concerns, I leave my options open in nearly all areas of life. I've always lived my life as I please, with rare moments of conformity in order to earn reasonable money to live off. I am committed to being ME, at the social cost of ever being considered "successful", for nearly none of our social conventions agree with my vision of an ideal world... :)
@T A A No that's fine... I'm not calling YOU bizarre, and I'm all for you being whoever you are. I support it, and I'm not judging it in any way. What I'm saying is that I don't understand yet how you can be so sure of what you're saying about what's in other people's heads.

(omg, am I stuck in a logical loop here, somehow? I guess we're all trying to talk about what's in other people's heads, wrt to this topic.)
I am not dissociated from my reasoning, I am one with it... Being inside other peoples' bodies and heads is a life passion of mine. There is no end to my curiosity!

I have loved/fucked/eaten/worked/travelled with people from all walks of life/nationalities/criminals/ages/cultures/class/color/religion/conviction/education/philosophies/income in varying states of sobriety.

I am OCD about acquiring/accumulating varied life experiences! I've also spent 11 years in graduate studies since highschool, in different areas, which I think qualifies me as OCD on diversified education as well.

So yeah, I shut up on things I know nothing about, but on the topic of sex, there is not much I haven't explored, in depth, with myself, and others. You wonder how I can know what's in people's heads, I've been there, that's how.

But I cannot make you trust my word on that... you just have to go with it or not, it's a leap of faith... into mixed realities...?
emotional attraction is based on psychological attraction first. most attraction laws are based on Pheromones or specific body parts of interest. when we look at sexuality in mammals it is not as easy as insects. We are complex creatures with thought process and find it hard to distinguish what each species are thinking or why they do something. A huge flaw in science is its ability like religion to get people to believe something so it becomes the norm. this is especially true with sexuality. A great deal of sexuality does come from the body or biological makeup. this preference you in orientation you describe comes from a deep seeded thought that man is suppose to be with women to procreate. Which for us humans that is true, but slowly becoming a old age tradition as more women forgo the man and just use his sperm.

"a response to purely physical stimulation does not necessarily have anything to do with sexual attraction."

In mamals it does. the smell the look the feel are all body functions that get you aroused, the mind is what triggers this desire to want to mate or in this day and age get to know someone then have sex. in the ancient world of cavemen it was a need to have sex not procreate. Men and women just get the desire to screw sometimes out of thin air. the mind chooses the subject or object to help us release ourselves for that 10 to 30 seconds of pleasure. Making a baby out of it just happens. In many mammals sex is not just for procreation but mostly for recreation and a desire to just fuck. when you break it down scientifically it becomes something much more than it should. Your ideas of what your sexual orientation will be come from us studying people. I often find i am more attracted to people in general rather than one specific gender. It has nothing to do with being bi or straight or gay. It is how i see the world, which is why we all have different sexual preferences. We all see the world slightly different.
Biology has nothing to do with it.
I can't help but think of sexual behavior in both the natural, animal context and the human, cultural context. The premise made by Nathan's boss (as stated in Nathan's last paragraph) is "we are all born bisexual". The name of the topic implies (to me) a more human, cultural context that comes into play at sexual maturity. We're confuzzedidly conflating two different contexts.

So I agree that part of the reason why people are still repeating opinions past each other here is because--even now--we've not yet agreed on scientific and emotional terms. And perhaps there are other contexts in these threads I haven't even thought of that are adding to the confusion.


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