Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by matt.clerke on March 12, 2013 at 6:28pm

Is it up to us to define evidence? Whatever has convinced you that there is a god and that that god is the same god as the one in the bible. Tell us that, and we'll either point out where your thought process was flawed or we'll see the error of our ways.

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Harris on March 12, 2013 at 6:42pm

Reg says "arguments are not evidence". Therefore, I'd like to know how he defines evidence and what he would accept as evidence (for God). Otherwise, we're just talking past each other. So, care to give me your answer on those two questions?

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Permalink Reply by Reg The Fronkey Farmer on March 12, 2013 at 9:24pm

Hi Kevin, I will try to explain what I mean. I think we were here before though with the KCA in a previous debate. You contend that (religiosity aside) that the KCA is evidence for the existence of God. I contend that it is not. It is only an argument and even if you “win” the argument from a debating viewpoint it still cannot be used as evidence for a particular god.  So even if something caused the Universe to begin to exist you can still only argue that the Christian god was this “cause”. There is still no evidence to deduce that it is so.

Let me put it like this. You as a Christian assert that your God exists. When you tell me this you are making a subjective claim. You are telling me what your mind believes or holds to be the Truth. I have no problem with that. However if you wish me to believe what you believe then you need to make your claim objective. I need something tangible to consider that exists independently of your subjective claim. Something that I can consider without any further input from you.

I can sit here all day and discuss all manner of philosophical, scientific and even theological arguments with you. We could play tennis with the KCA if necessary and I would relish the prospect. However it would all be just “argument”. It may be intellectually stimulating and that is all well and good but if you cannot put some “evidence” on the table and allow me to study it then the premise that “God exists” will remain purely subjective.

So if you cannot move from subjective argument to objective evidence I can only conclude that you have none. If you wish to maintain your assertion that God exists then the onus probandi is upon you to produce some evidence. I get your conceptual analysis based on your definition of God but it is not evidence in itself. I get the logical possibilities of your arguments in Kantian terms but to get to the material possibility we need some evidence presented for analysis.

I understand you have affirmed the cognitive belief that your God exist. If you want me to give that premise any further consideration you must justify it for me or it holds no value to me other than I know that it is just something you believe no matter how deeply held it is.

(It is 1 am here – stupid round Earth and its time zones).

So arguments are only to help the case for the possibility that a God may exist. If your believe so then it is just your subjective opinion. If you want to convince me that it is more than just a logical possibility, i.e. that God actually exists then objectify your claim with testable evidence. Otherwise admit that it is only based on faith. It may be a reasonable faith for you but it will remain meaningless to me without it. Not proof, just a little shred of evidence. Ok that is a start.

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Harris on March 14, 2013 at 5:39pm

Reg, don't you agree that an argument is just a way of presenting evidence? The evidence is found in the premises of the argument and can be examined, affirmed, or disputed. For example:

1). If it's Sunday, Chick-Fila is closed.

2). It's Sunday.

3). Therefore, Chic-Fila is closed.

One can check evidence for premise #1 by researching Chic-Fila's policy on being open on Sundays, or whether a business called "Chic-Fila" even exists!

Evidence for premise #2 can be seen by consulting a reliable calendar, etc. and this would be objective evidence (existence of company policy, eyewitnesses who have eaten at or seen Chic-Fila).

So if there is evidence supporting the premises, the conclusion follows, and that serves as further evidence for the proposition (or argument). Do you agree so far? Why or why not?

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Permalink Reply by Jorita on March 12, 2013 at 11:44am

This is so boring it is going nowhere slowly. How many different christian faiths are there?  And they all claim to be the true and only true faith. I have been told so many times " but they are not true christians" by christians  condemning other christians faith. They can not even agree amongst themselves. And every one of these different faiths will interpret the same book , the same versus in different ways. At least as Atheist we agree that there is no god. We belief in critical reasoning and thinking.

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Harris on March 12, 2013 at 12:47pm

Jorita, what you're correctly pointing out is the differences in the application of certain key doctrines, The major denominations of Christianity are united on the Essentials, but differ on peripherals. So, there is only one Christian Faith. It's up to us to make sure we're accurate about it.

BTW, critical reasoning and thinking is certainly not the sole domain of atheists!

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Permalink Reply by Dale Headley on March 12, 2013 at 4:21pm

   Any rumination on what constitutes a fool vis a vis scriptural injunctions is a de facto acceptance that there are things in the Bible worthy of respect.  I don't believe there are; therefore, it is meaningless to me.

   I do have my own perception of what constitutes a fool, however; and it's anybody who puts any value whatsoever in any religion.  All religions are based on the fear of death; and many people choose to allay that fear by being foolish.  I do not begrudge them that choice, but to characterize anyone a fool for being an atheist is the supreme example of the charred pot calling the kettle insufficiently black. 

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Permalink Reply by Jorita on March 12, 2013 at 4:46pm

The christians can not even agree amongst them selves, and argu with each other and as if that is not enough they feel the need to argue with Atheists, You don't get it that to us religion is of no value. If I had to follow the scripture word for word, I would be in a cult, from a lot of christians view point, if I was catholic I would be worshiping Idols from another christian view point, if I was baptised as an adult after confessing my sins I know the Duch revormed church will condem Me. If I was only baptised as a child then the Baptists would tell me I belief wrong. Please make up your minds , because as christians you can not even see eye to eye with each other, and will always find a way of "explaining " your way out so that you yourself can belief that what you say is the truth. you say "Christians are united under the on the Essentials" what Essentials? I find that christians quote the bible as it fits their interpretation of what is conveniant to them> If you are a racist you will find a vers that you can proof that god tells you so, if you are a biggemist you will find a vers to ok this, if you are a homophbic you will find a vers to say it is ok. If you kill in the name of religion or with hold medical treatment it is ok because there is a vers to back you. If you treat a woman as a second rate person a vers will be their to back you. I can go on and on. So please what Essentials?

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Harris on March 14, 2013 at 6:04pm

First, just because people disagree on a source does not necessarily mean the source is false. Just because people interpret a source in different ways does not mean the source is false (or that it doesn't exist). Because people misquote a source does not necessarily invalidate the source.

Secondly, when looking down the corridors of church history and examining the creeds and teachings, etc. one sees certain Essentials of the Christian Faith emerge. And those Essentials can be checked by the Scriptures themselves. They are basically:

• There is one God who is Triune
• The Bible is inspired by God
• The Virgin Birth of Christ
• The Blood Atonement of Christ
• The Bodily Resurrection of Christ
• The Second Coming of Christ

Things like how or when one is baptized, how often to take communion, whether one can lose one's salvation, etc. are important, but there is room for disagreement on those things. 

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Permalink Reply by Jorita on March 14, 2013 at 6:38pm

Kevin in that lies my problem with religion, nun of the different faiths belief that they are miss quoting. They all belief that they are right. If the different christian dominations can not agree on the interpretation so many of the points in the bible , surely you have to question the validity of the bible. I would love to know what science would be like if scientists took that aproach what a nightmare! Amasing how their is always room to tweak it so that it fits within ones own perseption. How religion is the one thing where you can chop and change the meaning or interpretation of something to fit your viewpoint. And last but not least what are you doing on this site? My personal opinion if I whanted christian company I can talk to my family the whole day or go and star posting on christian sites. I am curious as to why you feal the nead to post here? Are you bored? Are you not sure about your own faith? Are you on a mission from god to try and convert us? What is your agenda?

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Harris on March 14, 2013 at 7:20pm

Jorita, I don't blame you for having a problem with religion. We all do! The subject can be emotional, troubling, and affect us on the deepest levels of our lives.

I define "religion" as our attempt to find God (or something transcendent), know God, please God, or reach God, and show devotion in that attempt via various rituals and beliefs. (BTW, I think Christianity is the opposite of "religion", in that it is God reaching to us through Christ).

So the question becomes whether there is a "religion", or something in religion, that is true. And because we are human, we can botch up truth pretty badly, and fight, and disagree!

Scientists disagree all the time. There are about 10 different interpretations of Quantum Mechanics, but that doesn't mean there is nothing going on at the quantum level! Because there are disagreements on the Bible does not mean the Bible is not a source of truth.

But you're making an important point. If the Bible is inspired by God, why is there any disagreement at all? Theologically, I think this is the Problem of Evil. God has allowed evil (temporarily), and it is an evil that we are so fragmented, hardhearted, selfish, dull, etc. so we can get things wrong. Nevertheless, we can examine whether the claims of Christ are true! He said, "Seek and you shall find...".

Finally, I'm here because I am interested in these topics, but mainly because I hope I can give some good input and knock down any unnecessary road blocks people have which keep them from following Jesus. 

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