Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Nelson on June 10, 2012 at 1:15am

Welcome Kelsey! Glad you decided to take the plunge! :)

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Permalink Reply by Kelsey Hayes on June 10, 2012 at 1:27am

Thanks! It's nice to be here!

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Permalink Reply by John Eisenhauer on June 10, 2012 at 2:55am

Two points:

While I don't know your situation, it will (in all likelihood) profoundly change your family dynamic if you tell your dad that your agnostic. So, think hard about whether or not you want to.

An Atheist IS an agnostic.  God is simply very, very, very improbable.  If I told you that there was a pink teapot the size of a planet 1.5 light years from the earth, you'd say "BS!". God is a super-intellect that exists outside of the confines of space and time.  Both notions are apparent nonsense. But, hey, if there is proof.... That said, a Scriptural God can be definitively dismissed (due to the paper trail).

I'm crashing after writing this and won't respond tonight. Sorry

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Permalink Reply by James Cox on June 10, 2012 at 10:24am

Of course it might be very safe to assert that there is such a planet at 1.5 LY out, if you do fail to mention its location. The 'truth' of the assertion might take sometime before the disconfirmation. It is unclear if the present deep sky surveys can determine 'shape' at present state of the art. Asking researchers to start looking for 'tea pots', might be meet with, 'Wow we never thought of that!'. Discounting it because it seems absurd, might be ok. If memory serves, I think there are some asteroids that have strange shapes, but please do not qoute me..LOL.

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Permalink Reply by James Cox on June 10, 2012 at 10:38am

Would the 'tea pot' shape be an indication of 'intelligence'?

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Permalink Reply by John Eisenhauer on June 10, 2012 at 12:30pm

Sure, the "teapot" thing is a metaphor for an absurd statement. God is a super-intellect that exists outside of the confines of space and time.  And, that is inherently absurd.  It could be proven true: I'm not holding my breath.

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Permalink Reply by James Cox on June 12, 2012 at 9:40pm

I keep thinking that this point was made in the 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'.

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Permalink Reply by Ron V on June 10, 2012 at 7:47pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable.^[1][2] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the difference between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief. In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who is undecided about the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively.^[2] In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist. Within agnosticism there are agnostic atheists (who do not believe any deity exists, but do not deny it as a possibility) and agnostic theists (who believe a deity exists but do not claim it as personal knowledge).

Types of agnosticism

Agnosticism can be subdivided into several categories, some of which may be disputed. Variations include:

Agnostic atheism

Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.^[16]

Agnostic theism

The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.^[16]

Apathetic or pragmatic agnosticism

The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.^[17]

Ignosticism

The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable.^[18]

A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against.

Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism")

The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities, and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."

Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism")

The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable; therefore, one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day, when there is evidence, we can find something out."

Spiritual Agnosticism

The view that universal ethics and love can guide actions more effectively than questioning the existence of deities. A spiritual agnostic would say "It doesn't matter which religion you might follow, nor does it matter whether or not you believe in God. What matters is what you do, not what you believe."^[19]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.^[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.^[2][3] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.^[3][4][5] Atheism is contrasted with theism,^[6][7] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.^[7][8]

 

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism}

Ignosticism or igtheism is the theological position that every other theological position (including agnosticism and atheism) assumes too much about the concept of God and many other theological concepts.

It can be defined as encompassing two related views about the existence of God:

1. The view that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of god can be meaningfully discussed. Furthermore, if that definition is unfalsifiable, the ignostic takes the theological noncognitivist position that the question of the existence of God (per that definition) is meaningless. In this case, the concept of God is not considered meaningless; the term "God" is considered meaningless.
2. The second view is synonymous with theological noncognitivism, and skips the step of first asking "What is meant by 'God'?" before proclaiming the original question "Does God exist?" as meaningless.

Some philosophers have seen ignosticism as a variation of agnosticism or atheism,^[1] while others have considered it to be distinct. An ignostic maintains that they cannot even say whether they are a theist or an atheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth.

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Permalink Reply by Dennis Smith on June 10, 2012 at 6:59am

Personally, I would encourage you to wait. However, how are you managing college? Are your parents helping pay for college? If so, there might still be an issue. As many in The Clergy Project have found, the consequences of "coming out" can be significant and wide reaching. It is really each individual who has to make a decision based on their own circumstances, whether they can risk it. There is a lot to be said for the courage to come out and being willing to sacrifice for the cause of secularism in the US, but in the end it is your own precious life that you must consider.

You should have a backup plan to deal with the possible fall out.

www.clergyproject.org

Dennis

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Permalink Reply by Mabel on June 10, 2012 at 8:32am

Welcome to Think Atheist Kelsey. I agree. This community is amazing!

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Permalink Reply by James Cox on June 10, 2012 at 10:35am

Dear Kelsey:

You could just wait till you are ready to leave home, but I understand that that could be hard. Both my parents were educated at catholic schools, but my mother was well read and had suffered severly from several family deaths, my father was not well read and just mostly repeated what he was taught.

It is unclear how each of us come to our realizations. I expect that it is rather individualized. For me, is was my science interest, deaths in our family, family violence, and watching the lives of others.

Take care

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Permalink Reply by Unseen on June 10, 2012 at 10:47am

I'm an agnostic atheist, which may sound wishy-washy, but all it means is that it appears to me that there is no theistic deity, but my mind is open to evidence which, at this time, I can't even imagine.

Most of us here are pretty hard-headed in our atheism, but you'll run into the occasional theist wanting to prove his faith by walking into the lion's den, and then there are a few new-agey soft-in-the-skull types who will bring up "evidence" they found on Youtube or the SyFy channel for spirits or alien visitations. If you dismiss them, they'll accuse you of not having an open mind (even though you may be here in the first place due to changing your mind about theism).

Welcome!

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