Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Atheist Ninja on May 11, 2009 at 5:57pm

Of course it is a terrible decision to make. The law is fully equipped to handle duress; that's why abortion isn't illegal.

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Permalink Reply by Misty: Baytheist Living! on May 11, 2009 at 6:47pm

But wait!! You can't use anything like legalities or woman's rights in this debate. He said so!
Hahaha... ok. I think this is pretty much just an amusement slaughter-fest on this poor guy now. I'd like to think all atheists are above 'faith' and believing in an idea 'just because' (and despite the lack of evidence and science to back it up.) Clearly his convictions are more dear than proof, and nothing we can say will change that. (Wow.. sound familiar to anything else we know of? Fundies *cough, cough*)
Anyway, just because he claims to be atheist doesn't mean he has to be reasonable.

Duty to Rescue/Right to Rescue Laws
Trespassing Laws
Lack of any proof that an embryo/fetus should have rights to begin with.
Utterly impossible for society to live up to anti-abortion/birth control laws

It's clear that he has lost on all accounts and is unable to defend his arguments, therefore it's no longer a debate.
He obviously must be just begging for attention to continue on without any new material.
I for one am no longer going to humor him.

On that note, Nulono.. I'd just like you to take a look at this thread. Really look at it and scan through. Unless you believe that "God opens and closes the womb of women" and anything else is meddling.. or unless you believe that some soul is lit up the moment an egg is fertilized, there really is no evidence against abortion. Read what people have said to you. Think about it. Not a single person was swayed by your case.
Maybe.. just maybe when you think the entire world is crazy and you are the only sane person, it's the reverse that's true.
Maybe...if you stop and think... if it seems like everyone is being an asshole to you, it's really YOU with the problem.
I'm not saying the majority is already right, I'm just saying that if you were capable of unbiased analysis...a few things might click into place for you.
Either way, I wish you luck.
See ya around the site.

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Permalink Reply by Chelle on May 11, 2009 at 7:01pm

I wholeheartedly agree and this is why I have left the debate myself.
If you are arguing to convince us, well I think you need to consider that this site is full of reasonable and thoughtful people and they just are not moved by your arguments. Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you may not have considered everything in coming to your conclusion on this issue. I challenge you to reassess your position and consider all the issues before deciding.

You are not likely to affect change nationally when your position is not reasonable and does not deal with all the variables. You may think I just can't see the obvious, but I think you just can't see the less obvious.

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Permalink Reply by Nulono on May 12, 2009 at 4:36pm

1: This may surprize you, but I don't hold this view on faith.
2: Rescue laws do not apply because we are discussing whether or not the mother may actively kill the child.
3: Trespassing laws do not apply because the fetus exists due to no fault of his own.
4: Fetuses have human rights because they're human. As for proof, prove you, or an infant, or anyone has rights.
5: Good. One less discussion to keep track of.
6: I believe that people live and die due to natural causes, and that homicide is immoral.
7: It's not "the entire world" that disagrees with me. Even if it was, an atheist should be "reasonable" enough not to try to get away with ad populums.
8: See 'ya. I can barely keep up with this thread, though, and this forum is hard on my laptop.

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Permalink Reply by Nulono on May 12, 2009 at 4:28pm

No, there are still punishments for killing under duress.

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Permalink Reply by Atheist Ninja on May 13, 2009 at 9:29am

Nobody said there isn't. The point is that you're backing the law for having separate charges for killing under duress, yet you claim to refuse to acknowledge for the sake of argument that the law also has separate charges for abortion, that being none.

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Permalink Reply by Nulono on May 12, 2009 at 5:37pm

1: I am pro-everyone, embryos included; the rights of embryos are equal to the rights of adults, but some rights supersede others.
2: I do not claim dictatorship over the female body; I am opposing dictatorship over the unborn body.
3: That's why I'm a libertarian and not a Libertarian. I also disagree with their economic stances.
4: Argumentum ad antiquitatem. The "traditions of our legal system" can be wrong. Abortion has only been illegal for a few dozades. Slavery was much more a "legal tradition", but I think we all agree now that it was wrong.
5: Why dis you pluralize "embryo" with an apostrophe?

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Permalink Reply by Nulono on May 12, 2009 at 6:06pm

1: This is not about prolonging a life, or saving a life, or sustaining a life; this is about not ending a life.
2: Killing all Mexicans would open up a ton of resources. Not everything that fixes overpopulation is good.
3a: You want to remove the "children". I want to remove the "unwanted".
3b: The way to achieve "all children are wanted children" is better education, contraception, etc., not "kill all unwanted babies!".
4: All expansions in rights will necessarily reduce the freedom to oppress. Abolition reduced the freedom of whites to own slaves. Feminism reduced the freedom of men to rape their wives. The Declaration on the Rights of the Child reduced the freedom of parents to abuse and indoctrinate their children. The Geneva Convention reduced the freedom to torture. The Kyoto Protocol reduces the freedom of big businesses to fuck up the planet.
5a: Abortions still aren't safe now, and 90% of illegal abortions were done by doctors.
5b: Frankly, a woman who dies trying to kill her child gets no sympathy from me.

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Permalink Reply by Nulono on May 12, 2009 at 5:15pm

1: Why would I want us to leave children in ditches?
2: It is safe for mother but not child.
3: THE FETUS IS NOT A PART OF YOUR BODY! You have every right to control your body, but your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.
4: When did I ever suggest baning contraception, or adoption, or anything besides abortion? Banning abortion does not make you a "production facility" any more than not letting pilots drop stowaways midair makes them chauffeurs.

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Permalink Reply by Chelle on May 12, 2009 at 5:47pm

If something is happening to MY body I have every right to alter it. You have absolutely no right to tell me what to do. You can express to me your ideas about the embryo I am carrying but don't you dare tell me how I should deal with the situation. Do you genuinely think you are standing up for the life inside me? I am responsible for nurturing that life as it grows inside me or not. You have absolutely no business sticking your nose up my vagina and telling me what I should be willing to allow come out of it. Do you not understand how you are sticking your nose where it does not belong? I am genuinely offended that you dare tell me how to use MY body.

The fetus IS a part of my body, it is, no seriously it bloody well is, have I made that clear enough it is, ffs it really and truly is!!! As a mother I truly GET that the child I nurture IS a part of ME!!! I have two kids I could not adopt them out cause they are a part of me they exist because of my cooperation, they grow because I nurture them. They get their identity from my relationship with them. I understand that the meaning of their lives IS their relationship with me and their family and later their world. I understand that if they were not brought into this world with my cooperation then this whole thing would break down and the meaning of their lives would also break down and ultimately their lives would be 'meaningless'.

I swear to you I am speaking from experience before I had kids I thought that I could NEVER abort a child now as a parent who understands the enormity of LIFE I think actually I can understand why someone would abort. Think about it!! Do you understand what the heck you are talking about. You have not expressed that you do. Show me that you understand beyond the black and white. I despair that you are so unwilling to see where others are coming from?!?

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Permalink Reply by Nulono on May 12, 2009 at 5:56pm

Okay, you're talking "part of me" in an emotional sense. You admit that you have two children, and they are "part of you". Killing them, however, would be murder.

I agree that you have the right to control your body. You may not control anyone else's, which is what abortion is.

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Permalink Reply by Chelle on May 12, 2009 at 6:17pm

No it is not just emotional although the emotional cannot be dismissed because that is what gives us humans our meaning.
Physically a baby growing inside me is a part of me, it is from my egg and it certainly relies upon me for survival and that cooperation is optional from me it cannot be sanctioned by law. If I cooperate and give it life it is lucky and lives. When it is born if I do not want to cooperate by breast feeding or otherwise caring for my child than fair enough take it and nurture it. You are willing to cooperate with that life and nurture it so it may survive.

We are all trying to survive if an embryo is unlucky enough to turn up in an unwilling host than it will die such is life.

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