Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Nulono on March 19, 2009 at 7:22am

I didn't want to make direct comparison to murder (or, in this case, being an accessory to voluntary manslaughter under duress).

It all depends upon the validity of prenatal personhood.

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Permalink Reply by Misty: Baytheist Living! on March 19, 2009 at 7:39am

Ok.. so what you are saying is that it's a crime (though legally it isn't) and it falls somewhere between murder or voluntary manslaughter under duress depending on the validity of prenatal personhood.

And how do you define the validity of prenatal personhood?

By it's ability to live outside a womb (at the time of abortion) with/without medical intervention? So Plan B is the lesser charge, and late term abortion is murder?

Or by the socioeconomic status of the would-be-mother (since those with higher incomes will generally be able to fund education, ect ect..) So an unwed, underaged black single parent without a GED is the lesser charge and a white senator's wife is murder?


Oh yeah, also how do you define 'last resort' in saving a mother's life? What are your guidelines?
If she's got a 50-50 chance it's still murder? But the crime becomes less as her statistics for survival go down?
Or is it murder entirely right up until that point that she is going to die at any second and then it's ok? (and is it still murder if she does die because someone waited too long? Even if she was in that tiny slice of minority that still die from complications that all pregnancies risk? Those unforeseen events?)

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Permalink Reply by Frink on April 22, 2009 at 6:38am

Or option C: it's not murder, no matter how hard the pro-life nuts want it to be.

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Permalink Reply by LaRae Meadows on May 2, 2009 at 6:04pm

So you believe it is moral to trade one life for another?

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Permalink Reply by Nulono on May 3, 2009 at 6:38pm

Huh?

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Permalink Reply by Nulono on March 19, 2009 at 2:24pm

So, if not for fetal deformity, why is an exception for incest so important?

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Permalink Reply by brkfstclblvr on March 19, 2009 at 10:58pm

Because there is always the possibility that the two parties involved did not know they were related! Very rare cases here, but they do exist.

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Permalink Reply by Nulono on May 3, 2009 at 6:32pm

But why is incest an excuse?

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Permalink Reply by Robyn on May 7, 2009 at 10:13am

because it's gross...eww dude

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Permalink Reply by Nulono on March 19, 2009 at 2:26pm

Prenatal personhood is always valid.

And the "what if there's a 50% chance she'll die" is already covered by current laws (reasonable suspicion or whatever).

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Permalink Reply by noisician on March 19, 2009 at 3:49pm

"prenatal personhood is always valid" ???

why make a statement like that without an argument to support it? without something to back this up, it's just dogma.

fyi: i have heard coherent arguments that define personhood in such a way as to exclude fetuses, newborns, and vegitative adults but to include the most intelligent of non-human animals.

but we can't discuss anything if you don't state your case.

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Permalink Reply by Dave G on March 20, 2009 at 1:47pm

How do you define prenatal personhood? Where is the line drawn? Is, at the moment of conception when there is but a single cell, prenatal personhood established? Does it come with the development of a nervous system? With the development of recognizable features? With the ability to survive (with medical aid) when removed from the womb? With the ability to survive (without medical aid) when removed from the womb? Definitions are needed, as depending on when personhood is applied, I may or may not agree with you.

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