After a very long debate, I've really come to the conclusion that I have been wrong. The woman's body is her own. I surrender to the great will of logic I have been readin' since this forum was started. Reason, however, is still on my mind. Let's just say I'm against stupid people breeding and then getting an abortion because they didn't take any precaution. Not like an accident but a complete lack of thinking to prevent it in the first place. These people bug the shit out of me still. It was even mentioned on the site once that someone would have abortion after abortion after abortion if needed be because it was her right. I found this morbid & disturbing that such an attitude toward procreation can be viewed so hastily & without a care, as if getting pregnant was no big deal.
I'm Anti-Stupid or Pro-Responsible, I guess. I'll leave all other scenarios of rape & whatever to be done as seen fit by the mother/host (whatever they wish to be called). I like Dave's view on how they should be rare & this is how I will view it for now on. But I need conformation. Am I viewing this right? Do I still seem fundie-ish with this view of despising people that just are careless with their bodies (both man & woman)? The whole "I'm not ready", "It's a burden" (to both man & woman or one or the other), "It was just a one time thing". Get my meaning? Am I shallow with this?
I was more or less wanting to know if my view was a valid one. I'm all for birth control. And I really never saw the point of marriage unless it was to create a family. A living will can solve every other aspect when it comes to beneficiaries and such. It was a religious creation & turned into a state run franchise. All for the civil unions too. If they want to suffer marriage then so be it. I know it's like a promise more than a legal or religious binding contract but that is all it is anymore.
I dunno.. I'd say the best reasons NOT to have a kid are the "I'm not ready." or "I'm not in a good situation" ones.
Poverty produces more poverty. There are people out there that are unfit to have kids, and the most emotionally mature decision they can ever make is to not have one. I don't even think adoption is the right answer, because if you aren't invested in this fetus as a baby (and there is a difference) then are you going to give it the best start possible, or are you going to put it at a disadvantage by doing drugs and risky behavior that will create a child with learning or other difficulties later on down the road? The adoption system is a mess already. Sure, blue chip babies are in high demand, but what about the six month old with fetal alcohol syndrome? What about the baby born addicted to crack, or whose mother tested positive for meth? These kids are going to potentially have huge issues down the road, be further unwanted and an even bigger burden on aln already broken system. :(
Now, on the other hand, if you have a woman that learns she's pregnant and honestly wants the best for her baby (and knows that chance is higher with another family) then by all means. Wow. What a wonderful thing to do! Fulfill the dream of someone else!
But we can't decide who those women are. Only they can. Only they know.
Basically, I guess what I'm saying is that if they are too uneducated to use birth control if they don't want kids, they probably are too uneducated to be raising any. If we had a more adoption friendly system with support for intent to adopt mothers, that would be great.
But we don't. So we live by what we are stuck with.
I guess I'm letting my feelings get in the way a bit here. I can't prevent either the conception or abortion by the ignorant so it's like chasing my own fetal tail. I read into things too deeply sometimes & wish a case by case could be done but then human rights would be violated if I had my way, sterilization of the ignorant, which is wrong. How about a good kick in the balls for each unwanted, preventable pregnancy?
Oh.. I'm all for that. In fact, I don't think a kick in the balls (or ovaries) could be hard enough!
It's a tricky, nasty situation. I'm not FOR nonchalant abortions, but I know that there is no one on this earth that can weigh every factor except for the mother. There is nothing to be done for it, and that's sad. You limit one, you limit those with legit reasons, and that is unacceptable. The only thing I guess you can really do is fight to get all forms of highest quality contraceptives easily accessible to all people in all walks of life.
When I was in Thailand, the number one client of illegal abortions were Muslim women, both young women and married women that simply couldn't keep birth control in their house for fear of their husbands finding out.....it's just a horrible, horrible thing.
Oh yeah. And from what I know of you, your view is always a valid one. It might not reflect that of 100% of the population, but at least you research, do a thoughtful response and argue logic.
That's what make all opinions (even debatable ones) valid, right?
I agree with you, and would imagine most of us who support a woman's right to determine the best course of action for her own body, also wish to see abortions be a rare occurrence. I know I despise anyone who repeatedly chooses to seek abortions instead of taking a proactive approach to keeping a pregnancy from happening. That being said, to make seeking an abortion more difficult will not lead to fewer abortions, and it won't keep irresponsible people from being irresponsible. I have to ask myself if I trust a person who repeatedly makes bad decisions, ending in an abortion, to have a child. Will that person treat her body with respect once she is pregnant? I would say likely not. I think these are cases where we see fetal alcohol syndrome and drug addicted babies. My point is this. Maybe we aren't really talking about disliking people because they use abortion as birth control. The same people likely misuse their bodies in other ways, as well. Maybe we dislike them because they repeatedly make bad decisions. Bad decisions that not only affect them, but the people around them, as well. Therefore, I wonder if abortion is really even the issue, but rather a symptom of a larger problem in society as a whole.
I also question the line of thinking of a person claiming to be a libertarian while supporting social medicine, and opposing abortion.
From the Cato Institute:
The Rule of Law. Libertarianism is not libertinism or hedonism. It is not a claim that "people can do anything they want to, and nobody else can say anything." Rather, libertarianism proposes a society of liberty under law, in which individuals are free to pursue their own lives so long as they respect the equal rights of others. The rule of law means that individuals are governed by generally applicable and spontaneously developed legal rules, not by arbitrary commands; and that those rules should protect the freedom of individuals to pursue happiness in their own ways, not aim at any particular result or outcome.
Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.
Source: National platform adopted at Denver L.P. convention May 30, 2008
We favor restoring and reviving a free market health care system. We recognize the freedom of individuals to determine the level of health insurance they want, the level of health care they want, the care providers they want, the medicines and treatments they will use and all other aspects of their medical care, including end-of-life decisions.
Source: National platform adopted at Denver L.P. convention May 30, 2008
Summer, I'm in COMPLETE agreement. An intelligent friend of mine from high school told me the only thing no one can take away from us is our ability to choose. I am pro Choice also because I believe that everyone has the right to choose.
We were broke up when my wife (now) found out she was pregnant. Abortion wasn't an option for either of us even though we were in college. We CHOSE not to take that route. We didn't want to lose a baby. We CHOSE to get back together because we felt our son needed us. We don't regret our decision.
Everyone should be able to choose what they want to do in life. Abortion, same-sex marriage, assisted suicide, etc. should be legal because politics and religion should not tell us what we can and can't do. You have the CHOICE to do what your political and religious affiliation urges you.
And, before anyone poses this question, murder should be illegal because although I am pro-choice, I also believe that a person should not CHOOSE to do something that would intentionally harm anyone. When Humans adopt that philosophy as a whole, we will be able to accomplish even more as a people.
I always assumed that most people are anti-abortion. No one really seems to prefer that abortions happen. To me; if someone can have an abortion or not simply is not for the government to decide. I don't think it is my place to tell another woman or couple what to do about an unwanted pregnancy or medically necessary abortion. I also don't think that we have a means to draw a line anywhere other than conception and birth that makes any sense and wouldn't move with the development of new technology. We can say viability but that keeps getting sooner and sooner. So really, no matter what we decide the cut off will be subjectively determined. I want teenage girls, rape victims, and those with medical issues to be able to get abortions if they want them because the alternative is inhumane towards the woman. It doesn't matter if I would ever get an abortion or not...I'm just pro-choice.
Discourse on a subject
-especially when legislation is involved
is paramount into developing understanding of your own motives.
While I fully agree that name calling gets us nowhere, the fact of the matter is that this thread DID make a difference. Through the discussion, at least one person's mind was changed from a previously held belief. Right and wrong are subjective, but we live in a subjective world. If the author of the thread wanted to simply express an opinion, it might have been greeted with a more civil response. Because a legislation cry was attached to it, there is a very good reason to ask for logic behind the opinion.
Conviction just for the case of conviction is simply another tactic of religion. For those working towards a more secular government, it is a point that needs to be brought to the forefront. For those that have their lives effected by the debated laws, it is much more important than ideological differences and understanding.
"The right to swing your fist ends where another man's nose begins." OW.
In this case, the nose in question is my uterus.
Many people here DID approach the discussion with civility and data in their counter arguments. That was the point of the discussion, not ear plugging and shouting.