America was founded on Christianity?
Naturally I disagree with this wholeheartedly but I cannot find hardly any non athiest sites really backing the counter to this claim. Naturally I cited the treaty of Tripoli which quite clearly stated that america was not founded on Christianity. This was not enough and they cited the treaty of paris which was just riddled with god references. I have exhausted my ability to stare at google searches and finding MORE arguments backing america being founded on christianity than disproving it.
Are any of you guys well versed on this specific topic, because I would love a definitive answer written in a way that I can wrap my head around it for myself as well as quell this rediculous notion when brought up by others. Thank you so much anyone who would take the time to set this at ease for me.
Are any of you guys well versed on this specific topic, because I would love a definitive answer written in a way that I can wrap my head around it for myself as well as quell this rediculous notion when brought up by others. Thank you so much anyone who would take the time to set this at ease for me.
Tags: America, Christianity, Nation, founded
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Kris Potter on -
Thank you, but I feel that the citing of the treaty of tripoli is negated by the biblicle indications of the treaty of paris, do you have anything to say about that?
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Permalink Reply by Kris Potter on
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Thank you and I apologize, the phrase I searched for before making this thread gave me literally nothing that I was looking for.
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Permalink Reply by James on -
I believe doone was posting the link due to all the info and links in the replies.
One treaty does not annul the other, so the Treaty of Tripoli is certainly still admissible. It also states that the United States was NOT founded on the Christian religion. IIRC, the Treaty of Paris make religious statements, but don't concern the nations founding.
It would also behoove your friends to read up on the beliefs of the founders. Many were Deist, not Christian. The religious references in the Declaration of Independence are Deistic in nature. Though basically any religion could claim they were talking about them. But the Declaration is a moot point when considering our founding document... The Constitution. This is a wholly secular document. Not only does it not establish Christianity as a state religion (remember, religious rule is part of what they left England for), but it establishes the right to worship however you wish, whatever you wish or not to worship at all. Also, the separation of church and state shows that religion was meant to be kept separate from government.
Yes, some founders were religious, some Christian, some Deist, etc. But even if the founders were all Christian, would that mean the USA was founded as a Christian nation? No, of course not. Suppose that all the founders thought the only way to eat spaghetti was with meatballs. Would that automatically make it unamerican to forgo the meaty treats or establish a national pasta standard? No! We have the freedom to decide what is right for us. And after all... Isn't freedom what America is all about? The Constitution could have easily stated in any number of ways that the nation was intended to be built on Christianity. But it didn't. Instead it establishes it's separation from all religions and allows the people to worship as they wish as individuals.
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Permalink Reply by Chelsea Sherman on -
I saw on ancient aliens on the history channel that a lot of America's founders were athiests and wanted america to be an athiest nation. They mentioned Ben Franklin and I think John Adams.
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Permalink Reply by Darrell Hobbs on -
Here are some helpful quotes I found in "The Quotable Atheist" by Jack Hubbard. Even though many of our Founding Fathers were deist, not atheist, I hope these can help. Please forgive me if I am reposting previously mentioned quotes.
George Washington
“The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.”
John Adams
The Treaty of Tripoli, ratified unanimously and signed by Adams into law, 1797: “The United States of America is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion.”
“In the formation of the American government… it will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of heaven.”
Benjamin Franklin
“Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.”
“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”
Thomas Jefferson
“Question with boldness even the existence of a god.”
“State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all of our civil rights…. Erecting the ‘wall of separation between church and state,’ therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.”
James Madison
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
On faith-based initiatives:
“The appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, [is] contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that ‘Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment.’”
Ethan Allen
“In those parts of the world where learning and science have prevailed, miracles have ceased; but in those parts of it as are barbarous and ignorant, miracles are still in vogue.”
Thomas Paine, author of the influential pamphlet Common Sense
“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unsatisfying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself then this thing called Christianity. To absurd for belief… it produces only atheists and fanatics.”
“Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us into eternity.”
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Permalink Reply by Becca on -
This is one of those topics where it is extremely hard to find real evidence for either side of the debate because the debate is about the intentions of people who lived several hundred years ago.
I think the best counter argument is to argue that the USA was founded on the ideals explicitly stated in the constitution itself that way you aren't arguing a negative. It is explicitly stated that the citizens of the USA have the right of freedom of religion and that the government is not to make laws respecting the establishment of religion. I think that makes it more than clear that the USA was not founded on Christianity in any sense and was indeed founded on the idea that the government has no place in religion and that religion has no place in government.
I think it's also important to note that the the document on which the USA was founded, the constitution, contains no reference to god. The United States was not founded upon the Declaration of Independence so stating that god was mentioned in the declaration is a rather moot point.
Also all those arguments you get about god being in the national anthem and on money... well the founding fathers certainly did not put any of those references in place. The founding fathers were worm food by the time any of those things were added.
Most of the founding fathers were Christian. There is no evidence that the opposite was the case. There were a few deists however even that label can be legitimately challenged for all of the ones we today consider deists. One thing was clear though... the vast majority of them were secular in political thought.
Anyways hope this helps.
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Permalink Reply by Kenneth Montville D.D. on -
Thomas Jefferson was a deist who hated Christianity. John Adams wanted a completely secular nation (hence the statement made by him in article 11 0f the Treaty of Tripoli, which was unanimously ratified by Congress). Thomas Paine was an atheist. Benjamin Franklin said that lighthouses are more useful than churches. And George Washington never took communion, when asked about it by the pastor he said he understood that it wasn't right to leave before communion and stopped attending all together.
To put it another way, the Founding Fathers =/= the 12 Apostles.
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Permalink Reply by Jason on -
Glenn Beck crazies... there must be something in the water :)
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07/its-raining-glenn-...
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Permalink Reply by anti-supernaturalist on -
The US is a Secular State -- not a xian entity of any kind
Fundies are fond of using phrases like 'xian country' or 'xian nation' since 'country' and 'nation' are weasel words. Their ambiguity allows fundies to use fallacious reasoning and to lie.
To be precise: the US population in general is predominately xian. Nevertheless, as a form of government the US is a secular state. Despite fundie lies to the contrary, the US has always been a secular state. It remains a secular state.
• States deliberately based on religious claims: one limited democracy, one theocracy
By way of contrast, Israel is the Jewish state. Judaism is its state religion. In Israel, the state entwines with Judaism so firmly that Israel welcomes Jews from around the world ‘back to their homeland’ conceived religiously, based on the alleged promise of a god made in an ancient text Jews consider sacred. That Israeli laws would be skewed towards the requirements of Jews should come as no surprise.
The most bellicose of Israel’s enemies, Iran also entwines its form of government with religion, the shia sect of islam. The clerics of shia islam dictate foreign and domestic (secular) policy in the name of god. The word ‘tolerance’ does not enter their vocabulary. Just as there is but one god, there is but one true faith — shia islam. Iran’s 1979 revolution made clerics into rulers; Iran is a religious dictatorship, a so-called theocracy.
Just as in today’s Iran, America’s xian theocrat wannabes have no place in their ideology for dissent or toleration. People as meretricious as Palin, the “C” Street Family, assorted televangelists, and millions of soggy tea-baggers look forward to that bright day when "God" rules or "Jesus" rules. Their ideology of Dominionism espouses sedition.
• A new order is declared— Mr. Madison’s de-deification of the western political state
James Madison, primary author of the US Constitution, in a masterful secularization of government made certain that the word ‘God’ did not occur in the foundation document. Moreover, the word ‘religion’ (without specific reference to any) appears only once. And it applies to religious institutions (not to their supernatural claims). By truly intelligent design, the US became the first deliberately constructed state.
Neither the federal government nor the states can impose a state supported religious institution upon the people. The first amendment — indicates the assigned place for freedom of religious institutions within a secular polity. It is not a matter of whose supernatural beliefs are “best” — all are false. Rather the state cannot endorse or underwrite any religious institution. The so-called ‘establishment clause’ forbids the US becoming another Israel or another Iran.
In addition, two rules of secular politics follow based on freedom from state religious institutions:
1. Religious ideology enjoys no advantage over any other political ideology because of its alleged divine origin
2. No religious institution can assume a “god-given” political right to exert secular power.
There is no “executive privilege” for God. In our secular state a god’s purported proxies on Earth have no divine right to participate in or to dominate politics. All claimants to political power thereby expose their ideologies to examination, scrutiny, questioning. And if that questioning amounts to refuting supernatural beliefs? So much the worse for supernaturalism. An ideology is a public object.
Religious institutions exhibit a poor record in dealing with challenges to their presumed god-authorized secular authority. What did you expect from inveterate authoritarians?
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Permalink Reply by anti-supernaturalist on
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The US is a Secular State -- not a xian entity of any kind
Fundies are fond of using phrases like 'xian country' or 'xian nation' since 'country' and 'nation' are weasel words. Their ambiguity allows fundies to use fallacious reasoning and to lie.
To be precise: the US population in general is predominately xian. Nevertheless, as a form of government the US is a secular state. Despite fundie lies to the contrary, the US has always been a secular state. It remains a secular state.
• States deliberately based on religious claims: one limited democracy, one theocracy
By way of contrast, Israel is the Jewish state. Judaism is its state religion. In Israel, the state entwines with Judaism so firmly that Israel welcomes Jews from around the world ‘back to their homeland’ conceived religiously, based on the alleged promise of a god made in an ancient text Jews consider sacred. That Israeli law would be skewed towards requirements of Jews should come as no surprise.
The most bellicose of Israel’s enemies, Iran also entwines its form of government with religion, the shia sect of islam. The clerics of shia islam dictate foreign and domestic (secular) policy in the name of god. The word ‘tolerance’ does not enter their vocabulary. Just as there is but one god, there is but one true faith — shia islam. Iran’s 1979 revolution made clerics into rulers; Iran is a religious dictatorship, a so-called theocracy.
Just as in today’s Iran, America’s xian theocrat wannabes have no place in their ideology for dissent or toleration. People as meretricious as Palin, the “C” Street Family, assorted televangelists, and millions of soggy tea-baggers look forward to that bright day when "God" rules or "Jesus" rules. Their ideology of Dominionism espouses sedition.
• A new order is declared— Mr. Madison’s de-deification of the western political state
James Madison, primary author of the US Constitution, in a masterful secularization of government made certain that the word ‘God’ did not occur in the foundation document. Moreover, the word ‘religion’ (without specific reference to any) appears only once. And it applies to religious institutions (not to their supernatural claims). By truly intelligent design, the US became the first deliberately constructed state.
Neither the federal government nor the states can impose a state supported religious institution upon the people. The first amendment — indicates the assigned place for freedom of religious institutions within a secular polity. It is not a matter of whose supernatural beliefs are “best” — all are false. Rather the state cannot endorse or underwrite any religious institution. The so-called ‘establishment clause’ forbids the US becoming another Israel or another Iran.
In addition, two rules of secular politics follow based on freedom from state religious institutions:
1. Religious ideology enjoys no advantage over any other political ideology because of its alleged divine origin
2. No religious institution can assume a “god-given” political right to exert secular power.
There is no “executive privilege” for God. In our secular state a god’s purported proxies on Earth have no divine right to participate in or to dominate politics. All claimants to political power thereby expose their ideologies to examination, scrutiny, questioning. And if that questioning amounts to refuting supernatural beliefs? So much the worse for supernaturalism. An ideology is a public object.
Religious institutions exhibit a poor record in dealing with challenges to their presumed god-authorized secular authority. What did you expect from inveterate authoritarians?
the anti_supernaturalist
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Permalink Reply by anti-supernaturalist on
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The US is a Secular State -- not a xian entity of any kind
Fundies are fond of using phrases like 'xian country' or 'xian nation' since 'country' and 'nation' are weasel words. Their ambiguity allows fundies to use fallacious reasoning and to lie.
To be precise: the US population in general is predominately xian. Nevertheless, as a form of government the US is a secular state. Despite fundie lies to the contrary, the US has always been a secular state. It remains a secular state.
• States deliberately based on religious claims: one limited democracy, one theocracy
By way of contrast, Israel is the Jewish state. Judaism is its state religion. In Israel, the state entwines with Judaism so firmly that Israel welcomes Jews from around the world ‘back to their homeland’ conceived religiously, based on the alleged promise of a god made in an ancient text Jews consider sacred. That Israeli law would be skewed towards requirements of Jews should come as no surprise.
The most bellicose of Israel’s enemies, Iran also entwines its form of government with religion, the shia sect of islam. The clerics of shia islam dictate foreign and domestic (secular) policy in the name of god. The word ‘tolerance’ does not enter their vocabulary. Just as there is but one god, there is but one true faith — shia islam. Iran’s 1979 revolution made clerics into rulers; Iran is a religious dictatorship, a so-called theocracy.
Just as in today’s Iran, America’s xian theocrat wannabes have no place in their ideology for dissent or toleration. People as meretricious as Palin, the “C” Street Family, assorted televangelists, and millions of soggy tea-baggers look forward to that bright day when "God" rules or "Jesus" rules. Their ideology of Dominionism espouses sedition.
• A new order is declared— Mr. Madison’s de-deification of the western political state
James Madison, primary author of the US Constitution, in a masterful secularization of government made certain that the word ‘God’ did not occur in the foundation document. Moreover, the word ‘religion’ (without specific reference to any) appears only once. And it applies to religious institutions (not to their supernatural claims). By truly intelligent design, the US became the first state deliberately constructed to remove supernatural interpretations from political discourse and to replace them with rational accounts of political events.
Neither the federal government nor the states can impose a state supported religious institution upon the people. The first amendment — indicates the assigned place for freedom of religious institutions within a secular polity. It is not a matter of whose supernatural beliefs are “best” — all are false. Rather the state cannot endorse or underwrite any religious institution. The so-called ‘establishment clause’ forbids the US becoming another Israel or another Iran.
In addition, two rules of secular politics follow based on freedom from state religious institutions:
1. Religious ideology enjoys no advantage over any other political ideology because of its alleged divine origin
2. No religious institution can assume a “god-given” political right to exert secular power.
There is no “executive privilege” for God. In our secular state a god’s purported proxies on Earth have no divine right to participate in or to dominate politics. All claimants to political power thereby expose their ideologies to examination, scrutiny, questioning. And if that questioning amounts to refuting supernatural beliefs? So much the worse for supernaturalism. An ideology is a public object.
Religious institutions exhibit a poor record in dealing with challenges to their presumed god-authorized secular authority. What did you expect from inveterate authoritarians?
the anti_supernaturalist
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