Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by T A A on June 29, 2011 at 12:49pm

The very fundamental essence of belief is based on accepting without complete knowledge. That is FAITH. If it was complete knowledge, then they wouldn't need to call it faith.

An uncertain person is not an atheist. As another friend just emailed me... "I will not call myself an atheist because atheists close the door on faith, I leave the door open because no one has ever come back from the dead to prove atheists right".

She fails to understand the concept of burden of proof when it comes to knowledge.

 

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on June 29, 2011 at 12:29pm

No one cant be an atheist while being a theist but you can be an agnostic of either side

 

One can also be an atheist of certainty. Either by logical fallacy or by direct physical evidence.

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on June 29, 2011 at 12:18pm

Its not my picture so im not going to defend it much but to say i thought it might illustrate the diametrically opposing ideals and how they relate to knowledge and certainty. Yes i know there is no degrees to disbelief.. but it does what i intended if you dont get nitpicky.

 

Just imagine the left side has no extension and stops at the 0 axis if it makes you feel better.

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by T A A on June 29, 2011 at 12:20pm

Indeed a T shaped graph makes much more sense.

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Permalink Reply by T A A on June 29, 2011 at 1:01pm

The beauty of the scientific method is that it has the ability to catch past mistakes. Huxley made a huge mistake when he placed the word agnostic in his speech and begath a long history of misuse of the word.

Faith requires lack of knowledge.

To go about shouting to the world that one lacks knowledge to decide either way is not a useful position.

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Permalink Reply by Jess Schonberg on June 27, 2011 at 7:22pm

This sums it up pretty nicely:
http://ask.yahoo.com/20030527.html

But, basically, an Atheist is someone who states "I know / believe that there are no gods," whereas an Agnostic is someone who states "I don't know that there are any gods, but I don't know that there aren't, either."

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on June 27, 2011 at 7:40pm

No atheism is an absence of belief. It doesnt mean i know there are no gods. It can mean that.

 

The best example i have heard to explain it is its like the Guilty not guilty ruling in a court of law.

 

If you believe someone is guilty then you believe you have evidence without a doubt.

 

This is theism. If you say someone is not guilty.. that doesnt mean you believe they are innocent.. just that you dont believe there is enough evidence to say yes they are guilty. Agnostic jurors would be the people on the jury who arent quite sure that the guys innocent but there is enough doubt they wont say guilty. They are still atheist jurors but they are agnostic atheist jurors. Someone that says oh yea im sure there is no god is a gnostic atheist. They are certain that guy is innocent. The guy who in the jury room says im not sure hes guilty but ill vote that way anyway to hedge my bet is an Agnostic theist.

 

Im pretty sure i heard this on Atheist experience at least and its the best analogy ive heard

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Permalink Reply by T A A on June 27, 2011 at 8:57pm

Certainty... absolutes... all a waste of time to me and I refute the utility of those words to discuss delusion. It's about practicality. What drives your daily life? Reality or illusion? Refusing to admit the obvious is simply swimming middle waters in appeasement of peers and public opinion, a refusal to commit. As much as I'd get rid of the word "god", I get rid of the word "agnostic". Its fundamental essence is thinking that the imaginary "might" be real or "could" be real, and the act of clinging to that belief "just in case".

 

It's why invisible pink unicorns was invented.

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Permalink Reply by Jess Schonberg on June 27, 2011 at 10:07pm

Hence, me saying "...know / believe..." as opposed to just "know."

Have we all forgotten how to read?

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on June 27, 2011 at 10:24pm

Yes i believe at this point you have lost ability to read.

The part that is the problem isnt know/believe its the following part that says no gods.

 

Atheists dont know or believe there is no god(s)... We dont know that there is a god. The difference is subtle but very important in meaning. Atheism is a lack of belief. nothing more nothing less.

 

Its how been explained a dozen or so times quite lucidly in this thread. Your accusation of other peoples reading ability is laughable and shameful.

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Permalink Reply by dataguy on June 27, 2011 at 8:48pm

So if an Atheist says they don't know for sure one way or another if there is a god, then what use is the term 'Agnostic'?

I don't mind being called an Atheist of course, I just am not sure it's accurate since my stance is that I don't know for certain one way or the other.

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Walski on June 27, 2011 at 9:02pm

I think this has already been made clear by serveral posters.

 

Atheist and agnostic are not mutually exclusive and in actuality relate to two separate but complimentary stances one of belief and one of certainty.

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