Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Reggie on July 20, 2011 at 2:47pm

How do we overcome his arguments?  Simple.  Live our lives purposefully and without gods.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Price on July 20, 2011 at 2:50pm

That's his point, even if we live without God it would be absurd.

 

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Permalink Reply by Reggie on July 20, 2011 at 5:51pm

And my point stands. The value of someone's purpose in life is completely subjective. It would be absurd to try and convince someone of this basic concept when that person is a true believer in a cosmic purpose. Living your life with purpose (whatever that purpose may be) and being happy is a great way to prove them wrong even if they never understand that they have been proven wrong. In most cases, their delusions will prevent them from being swayed by any argument made, so why bother? People sitting on the fence and spectating may better see that a person's purpose in life does not need to follow a single, religiously prescribed path when they see examples of it.

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Permalink Reply by Jean Meslier on July 20, 2011 at 4:19pm

I will take a crack at this. With the indulgence of the grammar Nazi.

I made note of his major points:
"whatever we fill our lives with is meaningless"
A yearning for meaning is what hooks a lot of people into religion. What great fulfillment of meaning does religion provide? He ended his talk before he made that clear. As these guys often do. If they go beyond God give meaning to life it is generally a circular argument.
"people feel a lack of meaning and purpose"
Maybe so but this feeling has nothing to do with belief in God.
This is just a lack of imagination on what to do with there lives.

"when God is absent we fill the void with other things"
Some people are insecure and do try to fill their lives with material things. This has nothing to do with belief or lack of belief in God. He admitted his wife has a "problem" with buying purses. Doesn't God or his Philosophy fulfill her?

"we are not buying things we are buying meanings attached to those things"
Maybe his wife thinks all that she needs to fill her empty life is another purse.
"once you obtain a material object the happiness is gone. This is because the happiness is temporal and fleeting"
So instead get yourself an imaginary friend.
"Allah says life is just self delusion"
And he accuses atheist of being depressing.
"he blames violence on the secular world"
Most of the violence in the media is there because puritanical censors thought violence would be better for our children than showing people making love.
" this is not culture this is counter reality"
Yes, much like believing in magical beings.
"equates materialism with atheism"
He switches back and forth, making that implication.

"man needs spiritualism"
Why, prove it.
"we have the mercy and enlightenment of a monotheistic religion"
You have that delusion, yes.
"to invent meaning is an exercise of self-delusion"
Like belief in Allah.
He says that Bertram Russell re canted his atheism later in life but this is the only thing I have found on the subject:
" Bless the Christians for not reading more than "there was an Italian preist at Russell's deathbed." This is true. When asked if he (Russell) had anything to confess he said this:

"Yes, there is one thing. On one occasion I had a visit from the Emperor and the Pope simultaneously. I took them to the top of my tower to see the view, and I neglected the opportunity to throw them both down, which would have given me immortal fame."

This is the extent of his "repentance." Gotta love Lord Russell, droll to the end."

Why do theists assume that belief in a god automatically imparts meaning in your life?

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Permalink Reply by Ed on July 20, 2011 at 6:16pm

I have not found an iota of validity in the arguments of theists. Their idea that our short lives on this rock are meaningless without a "sky friend" is amusing. As a previous poster stated: purpose and meaning in life is entirely subjective.

 

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Permalink Reply by erik112358 on July 20, 2011 at 7:41pm

I would agree with him, and counter with: "So What?"

 

Why does there HAVE to be a purpose?

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Permalink Reply by Mallory on July 21, 2011 at 9:35am

I was thinking the same thing.

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Permalink Reply by Derek on July 21, 2011 at 12:40am

He ends with "please consider Islam" or in other words "please consider submission" and "please surrender your critical faculties" and "please do not ask questions". What a high price to pay for a placebo effect of happiness.

His entire so called 'argument' is in fact not an argument at all, as he is merely asserting that god exists, for which, at present, there is no evidence; ergo, his statements are baseless.

I would say our purpose in life is what we make it, as cliched as that sounds, it is so true. How ridiculous is the belief that we need a divine dictator to make us happy on pain of eternal torture? No superstition is necesary for a happy life, in fact, I believe it subtracts from it.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Doubting Thomas on July 21, 2011 at 8:30am

Placebo effect... I like that.

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Permalink Reply by Adrian Allen on July 21, 2011 at 10:16am

His opening example of being lost begins with the presupposition that we have no original starting point. To wake up after being unconscious and finding oneself in a new environment is bound to generate the question, "Where am I?" but that does not mean that we have to ask that question when we already know where we are. It's a false comparison.

His next argument - life is meaningless without God - is also false because he assumes that an atheist cannot have meaning and purpose. He makes no attempt to support that claim.

As often happens in such arguments, he conflates meaning for an individual with that of humanity, suggesting that atheist thinking says mankind has no meaning, and he tries to emotively suggest that therefore, individuals ultimately have no meaning for their lives. This kind of argument plays heavily on the minds of shallow people for they desperately want there to be meaning for themsleves when, without God, they cannot see any.

The obvious response to this is that there really is meaning for each individual's life, especially if they have friends, family and influence. If they cannot find happiness in that alone, then they are sadly lacking and deserve the God they hanker for.

However, ultimately, there is no meaning in the bigger picture because, if there was it would suggests a purpose designed by an external entity. This is one reason why God was invented, to give meaning for those who felt inadequate when considering the alternative - the reality - that ultimately there is no purpose to humanity, life or indeed, anything.

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Permalink Reply by Jean Meslier on July 21, 2011 at 3:32pm

Well said.

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Permalink Reply by Tim on July 21, 2011 at 1:19pm

People don't like the responsibilities of their lives on their shoulders. If where your life goes is based on what you've done, if it's not what you want, then it's disheartening. So people need a god or gods to have that responsibility, as someone to blame or claim that they have a plan for them that they can't know.

Belief in those gods is still an example of inventing your own purpose.

 

But there are so many more different things that we can work towards that can give meaning to life if you so desire it. Advancement of humankind, art, music, science, hell, if your goal is to be the best damn polka dancer, that should be enough. A lot of the comfort and learning people find from religion can easily be found outside of it if they actually look for it and think.

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