The point of this discussion is to get people’s perspective on abortion. Why people do it. And why people are against it.
From Catholic.org I found a video on abortion, but it didn’t look like the normal procedures performed in the United States. It looks like they purposely chose the worst pictures possible to convince Christians that abortion is wrong. Where did they get such graphic material?
Video Link: http://www.catholic.org/video/watch.php?v=13
A legal abortion in the United States looks more like this: http://www.thisismyabortion.com
I believe if you get pregnant by accident that you should keep it. But if you are forced (rape) (incest) then it definitely changes things. How can we force her to bring a rapist’s baby to term? I also heard that giving birth to a rapist’s baby is like being raped all over again.
I think that making abortion illegal is wrong. This takes away women’s rights. I believe women should choose, but I think it’s recommended that women take counseling before taking any action.
This is my opinion, but I would like to know others point of view on the subject.
I got two questions for you:
Point was that since I'm going to die anyway, and I won't leave trash (children) behind, I couldn't care less. Think about renting a car when you know you're going to die that day. We all will be done in, by death. Yes my philosophy is very personal and would not work if everyone held the same belief. Thankfully, like I said, people breed like packs of dogs - so don't worry, humanity is safe. I'm merely apathetic to it's existence, I care about myself. Evolutionary disadvantage.. I wouldn't be too sure about that. Evolution is not just about numbers. Right now humanity is growing, yet it's still going in a downward spiral like we're being flushed down a toilet. A few aborted lives won't change things, and if it does, not to the worse. Less people is always better, quality over quantity. No matter how you see it, it's still true. I'd trade a thousand muslim lives for one atheist life. The one is better for the betterment of humanity then the other, numbers are secondary. Not all genes are fit to pass on, but thanks to selfserving assholes with their "life is precious" nonsense everybody gets a shot now.
If your offspring would be nothing but trash that you leave behind, are you anything but trash yourself? Why are you quality and everybody else is quantity? Can you explain that? I doubt you are any different than the persons you detest, and deep down inside you probably know that too. Anyway, as you said, all your sterling qualities will be utterly wiped out at death.
You say you enjoy life but you would have to knock me over the head and wipe out my brain for me to believe that. How can you when you have to live in the midst of pathetic, filthy humanity? Yes evolutionary disadvantage. You said yourself you won't have offspring. That just ended your genetic line. So much for quality over quantity.
BTW does your girlfriend know about your first choice should she ever turn up pregnant? What does she think about it?
That's adorable, but unlike what you like to think, we are not all equal. Yes, life can be enjoyed without mingling with other humans, it's the way how I enjoy my life, I have a little circle of people whom I love and interact with, anything more is unnecessary. Once again quality over quantity ;P
I'd like to take you up on your offer, but I doubt there's much to wipe out.
About my gf, yes she thinks the same way, because she sure as hell wont let her life get ruined by a faulty condom.
What kind of a dumbass question is that anyway, how on earth would she NOT know my stance on this?
Do you usually not talk this kind of stuff over with your partners, and instead just surprise them with "I'm gonna keep this baby"?
What makes it a dumbass question? I don't know how many girls would be happy thinking that their boyfriend thinks their offspring would be trash to be left behind like junk in a rental car. Not very romantic, but hey, it takes all kinds.
You live, you have fun, and then you die. Ultimately, the specter of death will wipe out the fun you are having even before you are done having it. You are no different than the rest of the human race, you just want to be. You want to be better. And you are better, in your own brain...which will last until the worms get it.
Oh, and in the circle of your self-selected friends, who will also be dead in some fraction of a century. Chances are very good that you and I will probably both spend our last years in nursing homes being cared for by the people you detest.
As for insults, I just love people who think everyone who questions anything they say is automatically less intelligent, who surround themselves with people who only agree with them and admire their own charming and error-free selves. What makes you think your mind is any better than mine? Besides hubris, I mean. Seriously.
Your questions was whether or not she knows about my stance on a pregnancy/reproduction. That was the dumbass part, don't do a 180 now.
Don't you have some priests you can annoy?
Priests have enough people annoying them, KOrsan.
How and when did I do a 180? I only asked you a question, (for which I was rudely insulted) because, unlike you, I try not to assume things about people, but prefer to find things out before having an opinion on them, since as they told me in college, ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME.
Look, I'll be honest. I like to discuss ideas because I like to understand the truth. I don't have an agenda to prove I'm smart or right. If I sound challenging sometimes, it's because I like to get at the heart of things. Some people don't like their ideas challenged, but I kind of thought, from the title and all, that this would be an okay environment for that. I've already been told that's not welcome, and since I already came from a totally doctrinaire environment where I'm not allowed to think for myself, I prefer to not put myself in them voluntarily. I just don't like to be insulted and brainwashed. So don't worry, won't ruffle your little worldview no more.
You're giving yourself too much credit, you didn't challenge anything.
I smell objectivism in your tone. ;-)
I quess I have worked with, and even lived around these '..uneducated filthy excuses..'.
The world can be a very dirty, nasty place. When I put kitchen scraps in my mulch pile, I need to face the nasty prospect of opening the lid, throwing the stuff in, mixing the top, taking in the smells of rot, adding lime, and appreicating that I have one less thing to add to my garbage can. And yes, I have, in a year, great soil for my garden. These nasty, filthy discusting worms, bugs, bacteria, fungi, beetles are doing a job of recycling that they have done selflessly for millions of years.
Humans did not fall far from the ancestorial tree! Atleast group flea grooming has mostly been abandoned. But people with stones still hurt each other randomly, and ignorance is sometimes promoted as a 'good'. Self ornamentation can be taken to a rattling extream.
Quantity, sometimes guarantees decendents in this nasty filthy world. Consider the mass production of larva, eggs, pollon, spores, seeds, etc, that never come to produce a damn thing but food for other creatures, and more mulch. Nature seems very generous, just stay away from the nashing teeth.
'.. those that should not breed..', even they might have offspring that could change the world, even if it is only to write emails.....
If you are Pro-Life, you could lose the fetus sometime during pregnacy, or come to term and lose the child in birth, or the child could become ill and die latter.
If you are Pro-Choice, you could prevent the pregnacy entirely, or prevent the pregnacy-with some chance of failure, or an abortion.
I expect that these are not exhaustive lists of possible outcomes. I decision tree with frequencies could be created. I expect that the probably outcomes are nearly alike, but the 'quality of life' issues that are part of survival, are not yet mentioned.
I can't believe the outcomes are alike, because using abortion and birth control pills tend to lower a woman's overall fertility because they produce a lot of issues such as scarring (abortion and the IUD) and hormone imbalance issues (abortion, hormone pills) so that populations that do this generally have lower fertility all around, not just when they are trying to.
Plus, look at, for instance, the Irish population in the years leading up to the famines. The population was severely oppressed by the penal laws and extraordinarily poor and uneducated, and yet the population in those years in the rural areas grew unbelievably. Many died in the famine, but huge numbers also emigrated and populated other parts of the world. That would be an evolutionarily very successful group. They say the majority of the US now has Irish genetics in some way or another.
So I disagree with you, I don't think the probability outcomes are nearly alike, not when you have ten-children families common in some areas, and many of them generally successful by any standards.
I want to respond to a specific question you have asked, "is there anything in atheism to give value to my life as a woman?" I think life inherently has no meaning. We live [our being born alive being an accident] we die[definite]. Do you think if you were born barren, your life would have no meaning since you can't conceive? I think no. That said, I think we create value in our life by aspiring to achieve some goal that we have set for ourselves, at least for me that is. For the time that i was a theist, the thought that I had a higher purpose meant a lot to me but when I realized it depended on me, that feeling is no longer there, in it's place is the knowledge that it's up to me.
For the meaning of the word sentient, just go here for a definition. Now why look for arguments here, most of the people here I think have already come to a conclusion on gods so rather, they don't spend much time debating it. For that purpose, there are several books you could read for yourself and make a choice. One of them is a very short philosophical essay by Shelley Bysshe, The Necessity of Atheism.