In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

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The stories may be truthful from a personal point of view but still may not be the whole truth. Seeing where someone is coming from and believing everything that is related are different things.

Amen. I never believe anyone's POV when they relate a story about something. It is not that I think they are lying or that what they say did not really happen, it is just that I realize that one situation can have widely varied points of view depending on who is telling the story, so much so that you might not recognize a particular story as related by just two participants as being the same story if you did not already know.

Some people get offended, say, when they are telling me about how someone else slighted them and I don't confirm their anger by jumping on their bandwagon about how so and so "is a big jerk for doing that". I just don't put much stock in personal anecdotes (or gossip!) until I know facts or hear multiple perspectives. Also, I know how "polluted" our memories of past events can become.

Human beings have proven to be very unreliable witnesses to reality.
Sometimes, if not most times, that is the case. Are you familiar with the "Challenger" experiment on memory?
respond away! :) all views are welcome :)
Honestly, I kinda regret posting that now. I did not think a riff would happen. My bad. The reason I posted it was because I thought it might help people see where I am coming from on my view and personal opinions on abortion. I didn't mean to side track my own discussion (lol).

Side note: I don't respond to everything because that would take my entire day lmao. I think it rather interesting that this discussion is at the moment 35 pages long ;) glad i got such a large response :)

Please everyone continue. I've learned a lot so far which is never a bad thing ;)
I think your thoughts are wonderful on abortion.... I agree... mostly. I'm sure I don't know your full thoughts.... so here are mine... but first, I want to share some of my story. I was with an idiot and had a beautiful baby boy (long story after).... my son gets placed in my parents custody b/c of my ahole ex b/c he wasn't a very nice person and I was too young and dumb to leave him (I agree with my parents as of now... he didn't need to be around a bunch of physical abuse and fighting.... )... well, I was still "in love" with my ex and was with him one night (against my parents will.... I was 19 at the time) and he committed a crime.... he was on meth (I didn't know that at the time) and committed a robbery against someone who was trying to get me to solicte(sp) himself to me and he was trying to "protect" me... well, it went wrong and he decided to rob him while confronting him............ ok, long story a bit shorter.......... during the investagation, we COULD NOT have any contact with eachother.... but we did (LIER, I was EXTREAMLY brainwashed by him and "in love", and THOUGHT he wanted to be with me)...... I ended up getting pregnant. I was scared b/c if the courts found out, I could have been sent to jail for up to 5 years... But, I was wanting this baby more than anything.... My mother stepped in (as ticked off as she was at me.... and already had custody of my first son) and suggested abortion........ After much thought and tourture (b/c I was absolutly pro life AND Agnostic at that time) I decided it was best IF I could take the pill..... I didn't want my baby ripped out of me like a piece of trash...... I was able to take the pill at 7 weeks and 3 days...... At least I was able to have a private "miscarriage".... But I thought, "I am saving my parents from having to raise 2 kids with out my help... I am saving my freedom for the next 5 years... I am saving my relationship with my son who is already breathing and thinking and he can know me.... I wont have 2 kids that have compleatly broke my innocent parents and who wont know me after I get out of prison if they found out...... "
I knew what I did was the right thing no matter how hard it was for me.... it was both selfish/less......In my honest opinion.
Now.... MY thoughts on what is "right" for abortion..... first trimester and there better be a good reason (I don't even "agree" with MY reason, honestly... whoo hoo, I'm a hypocrit) and NO second or third trimester unless there is no chance (or very slim) of survival of the baby..... or mother (any serious medical issue, in truth)

So, there you have it, MY story (in most) AND my stance on abortion.... I consider myself pro choice, for I am not one to say "you cannot do that".
Wow. You have been through a lot. Thank you for sharing your story with me. I love that you were open about you experience with abortion. i can totally respect that. Thank you.
Your welcome :)
I like to share my story with anyone who is thinking of abortion... what my experience was, and how I felt after. Just b/c I don't agree with someones reason, dosn't mean Im going to sit there and tell them no or condem. But I do like for people to put much thought into it..... I feel like Ive helped a few people, and that makes me feel good :)
First off I haven't read the whole thread just the first 2 pages but I'll give my opinion anyways, lol! I'm very pro-choice. I don't believe that we get to pick and choose the right or wrong reason to have an abortion. To me it's a black or white issue with no gray. Either you support it or you don't and if you think any reason to have an abortion is okay, then you have to agree to ALL the reasons even the oopsies. Do I agree with using abortion as a form of birth control, no. But if the woman wants an abortion, then I will support her decision. I believe by picking and choosing reasons makes you (general you) not any better then the religious right fighters that protest and kill people over it.

Just my .02
I agree with you. Think abortion is a sick thing to do just because you don't want kids. I also agree that abortion in some cases, like rape, is up to the women and her only, and I can understand why she did. Life is a very beautiful and precious thing, if you think of how unbelievably lucky we are to all be here. Look and the formation of the universe. For one thing, it started, and our galaxy formed and then are solar system formed. Then Earth formed, and as far as we know, its the only planet in the universe that supports life. Also, the fact that millions of sperm(if not more) attack the egg and we are the ones that just happen to make it inside first.

Sorry if I went off topic :) but I just wanted to get that off my chest.
i understand your pov. i, am pro choice all the way tho. there are some people who just need to have abortions. they have no business raising children. one of my questions to you is, if you feel that abortion is murder then it shouldn't matter if it was rape or not. to you, it's still a life, kwim? that child didn't ask for it's mother to get raped, why should it have to pay that cost. now, i don't agree with this. i think that if an embryo cannot survive outside the womb it is not a life. a study in nebraska has shown that fetuses do no have the ability to feel pain before 20 weeks. anything before that is fair game to me. it's just tissue that has the ability to become life. think of a fertilized chicken egg. once is fertilized it has the ability to become a chick, but if you crack that egg open too soon it's just a mess of tissue. it's not a life. i work with mentally disabled children. some were born that way. some were made that way due to horrible parenting. they have all been abandoned and live in a facility where unconditional love isn't an option. i work with a child whose parents would put lye on him as punsihment. then they would throw him in a hot shower to "clean" it off. they also made him drink his own urine, defecate in a corner (he also had to sleep in this room) and shot him up with heroin when he was 10. there's more that they did but this kid is fucked beyond belief. he'll never have a chance at a "normal" life. he'll be in and out of the system for the rest of his life. he is unable to have basic human emotion. he can't even eat with the other children because he's stabbed too many of them with a fork. what's sad is that eventually the government will probably put him to death in his adult years. i think he'll kill someone in a horrible way. you think that abortion is the worst answer in this situation? you think that he appreciates that his parents kept him here? if someone doesn't want a baby they shouldn't be forced in to it. obviously, they know they aren't capable of raising a child in the way it needs to be.
I'm for abortion. Naturally, I'd prefer birth control, but often, for reasons that are difficult to control, people can find themselves caught.

I think I can echo what others have said regarding distaste for abortion. But having surgery to remove something is a decision that is always difficult to make, no matter how necessary it is.

I can give some less-than-conclusive arguments. I don't know how original they'll be.

From the religious point of view, there's a soul involved, and it's claimed that this soul is somehow inserted into the zygote at the moment it's conceived. A bit silly, that one. The "moment of conception" actually takes about 24 hours from the time the lucky sperm actually penetrates the surface of the egg.

Take away the soul concept and the zygote becomes a couple of cells - with the potential of becoming a human person. Not a full potential, mind you, since a large number of these little critters never implant and are simply flushed. Let's face it: it's a system designed to flush more than it saves.

Although negligible, one might consider that the offspring might not be viable and could be stillborn; the child may be born hopelessly deformed - siamese twins, perhaps, or other serious deformities. Most babies seem to be regular babies, but the odds are just slightly skewed by these possibilities.

But how valid is the argument of potential anyway? Like Monte Python's "every sperm is sacred," it's very difficult to draw a line and say that THIS is an organism on its way to becoming human but THAT is not. By this logic, if you have a chance to procreate and abstain, you might be killing a baby. Think about the children!

I think it's impossible to determine when you're killing off a few cells and when you're destroying a human life. To add to the confusion, anyone who has no children may not be able to understand how it would be to look at your child and think that you came THIS close to aborting it.

And on a personal note, had the circumstances of my own daughter's gestation been known, there would have been no question whatsoever that she would have been aborted - mother and daughter in her extrauterine circumstances have something like 1 chance in 500,000,000 of surviving to term. But she made it because of ignorance, is now in her thirties and I have a wonderful three-year-old grandson.

So it starts sounding like a philosophical question about the importance of human life. But that takes away the value of family planning, or 12-year-old girls forced to raise babies. It takes away the right of a woman to decide what happens - it's her body that the little parasite will be inhabiting for nine months.

It takes away questions of overpopulation and economy, of children being raised unloved and unwanted.

It's a difficult conundrum. Certainly, if done, it should be done quickly, for health reasons. The early fetus isn't going to suffer or ever be aware.

Back to the Christians and the historical point of view:

Napoleon decided to have turntables installed in convents and churches so that mothers could lay their child on the turntable and spin it into the warmth of the church. He did this because there were so many babies left on convent steps that froze to death that it was an epidemic. Women sometimes left their babies by the roadside to die. And medicines to cause abortion are as old as recorded history. This vicious attack on abortionists seems to me to be a thing relatively new in the world. The Romans, those brutal Romans, didn't consider a person human until they were an adult. Killing their child didn't seem like such a bad thing. (Think Constantine, who came home, killed his wife and infant son.) And given all the slaughter of children in the Old Testament, well, Christians don't have much of a leg to stand on.

You're going to lose a lot more human cells when you fall and skin your knees than you are in an early abortion. We have natural instincts to protect mothers and offspring just as we have natural instincts to protect our territory and return anger for anger. But we are also rational enough to know when we have to perform a distasteful act because it's the better choice.
You are not pro-life; you are anti-choice. Like many many, you want to keep women in their place.
Reproductive choice is a basic human right. People collectively acting as a government or acting as part of a non-governmental organization have no business being involved, whether its contraception or abortion.
It may be horrible for you to have an abortion if you accidentally get pregnant, but you have the choice not to abort the pregnancy. If another person sees it otherwise, it is her choice. Men and other women should keep out of it. After thousands of years of subjugation, every human female in truly civilized countries has achieved rights: to regulate her own body, to own property, to decide whether to have sex with her husband, etc.
Another choice woman have today is to choose how many menstrual cycles they have. Another way to regulate the babies they birth.
All these rights run counter to religions and it was religions that today still impair a woman's rights.
Life is not defined as a fertilized egg.


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