In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

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Sperm and eggs only have half the required DNA. I am not sufficiently up on whether that is regarded as alive or not.
Nah, it's relavant....... :)
i just don't see how it's immoral
"The reason it happens? It's nature's way of population control, to keep a species from overpopulating itself."

I would need to see evidence of that. Like a direct causal relationship between the number of miscarriages and population size.

The fact that nature does it anyway is irrelevant to the discussion. Natural miscarriages happen for lots of reasons, none of them caused by a sentient being making a decision (unless you are a theist of course).

The discussion is about whether we, as sentient beings, should be able to consciously decide to have an abortion and at what point the balance of a woman's rights and the rights of a foetus are reached.
I am female (and straight) and a virgin still. I'm 20 years old. I of course plan & hope to only have consensual sex in my life. I think before I have sex, it is only fair to basically "be in agreement" on whether or not having an abortion would/could ever be an option that both I and my sexual partner could handle. Perhaps abortion doesn't need to really be specifically discussed ahead of time, but it actually might be a good idea. At the very least it's a good idea if you seem to have pretty differing views on things than your partner. If the woman is anti-abortion and would definitely be having the baby if she got pregnant, but the man doesn't want to have to deal with a kid right now, is it important in my opinion for both parties to know that. It is also important to know if you accidentally got pregnant and would probably/maybe have an abortion, that your boyfriend would break up with you and be totally heartbroken and/or think of you as a murdering his child if you did. I know perhaps this is unrealistic and too awkward for people to discuss, particularly if you're "hooking up" with someone for like a one-night-stand kind of thing, and it's consensual but very casual. That's just not the type of sex I personally ever plan to have.

At this point I am old enough and likely not going to have sex anytime too soon anyway that if I got pregnant the first time I had sex (which is VERY likely to NOT happen because I will be very careful and use birth control, of course), I still might decide to try to carry the fetus to term. I know I do want to have children some day, preferably more than one... 2 is my ideal number. I definitely would like to be a foster parent and/or adopt though, and while I am curious about the experience of pregnancy and would love to have children that are biologically my own, I also am strongly considering never doing that because I feel there are too many kids out there who need parents. I honestly have no idea what I will do eventually, but at the moment I am just hoping to find someone to date. I'm not really at the children stage of my life yet. I'm not ready for that. ;)

Anyway, I said...
At this point I am old enough and likely not going to have sex anytime too soon anyway that if I got pregnant the first time I had sex (which is VERY likely to NOT happen because I will be very careful and use birth control, of course), I still might decide to try to carry the fetus to term.

I say try because natural miscarriages are common and various other things can happen too of course. I'd have to decide after I got pregnant, based on tons of specific circumstances at that exact time. But ideally I'd want to be only having sex with someone who would not oppose abortion absolutely and equate it to 1 of the people being killed in the Holocaust - a person with thoughts and feelings, who is loved by friends and family members, and all of these people would be hurt by this killing that had no justifiable reason - versus an unborn fetus who isn't a person yet, and no one except my partner and I would even potentially "care" about at this point in time. But each one of the MANY victims of the Holocaust had tons of people who would be affected by their deaths, which I think makes their deaths more significant. Plus they themselves could of course comprehend what was happening to them as they were killed and that makes it so so much worse than aborting a first trimester fetus. If I wanted to tell for instance my father (whom I am extremely close to) that I was pregnant, I could. And then technically he could care about the potential baby. But the fact remains that I could go up to him and hug him and he wouldn't even know that I was pregnant unless I told him. This isn't a living, breathing, baby who had been seen and held by people other than me, who cries and needs to be fed - no it just gets "fed" by me eating. I think technically it is up to me because of the simple fact that if I don't want to tell the father then he truly might not ever know I was ever pregnant. Or perhaps take the rare but possible idea of the father leaving town/the country/dying and then me finding out I was pregnant, I could potentially have the baby and raise it and if he was dead or just never returned to the country, he still would never know that I was ever pregnant. That fact alone shows that it was my choice and my burden. If we got pregnant and he knew about it but then I died or left the country without telling him where I was going, his baby would be gone. There is no way he could hold onto this potential life unless I was alive and choosing to stay with him.

I think ideally no one should need to go through with having an abortion because everyone would use contraception and it would be foolproof. And ideally the father's wishes should always be considered. But we certainly don't live in an ideal word. Many people's boyfriends/husbands are abusive... many people are raped... many people are taught myths about contraception and so they don't use it... or are taught that their religion forbids it... or are misinformed about what can and can't cause pregnancy in the first place... etc. Many people make mistakes and forget to use contraception properly even just 1 time, or they used contraception perfectly but somehow it still failed. People aren't taught about the "morning after pill" and don't even know it exists. Etc.

A lot of anti-abortionists judge people who get accidentally pregnant and accuse them of thinking of abortion as another form of birth-control. NO ONE thinks that. Even if a person has 3 or 4 abortions, which is much much higher than the "average" as someone else posted earlier, that most likely does not account for every single time that person had sex that would have resulted in a pregnancy. Because of the social stigma on it at the VERY LEAST, I would be extremely surprised to find anyone who did not use some other form of birth control and tried to the best of her ability (even if she has less "ability" to be responsible than some other people) to not get pregnant so that she wouldn't have to get an abortion. At the very least after her first unplanned & unwanted pregnancy. I could see some men/boys being truly, completely irresponsible and just not thinking about pregnancy. But I can't really see the girls not considering it at all.

Before having a baby, the decision to make is "do I want a baby right now?" and "can I take care of it properly, provide for it, etc.?". Whether or not you are already pregnant. It is never the perfect time to have a baby, it is always, to various extents, inconvenient and difficult and impossible to plan the timing of too exactly. But there are times when having a baby makes more sense and times when it really is better to not have a baby. You already have enough kids an don't want more, or you're still in high school (or middle school, which unfortunately is the case for some people), as two fairly common examples. And then OF COURSE the cases of rape and medical necessity and stuff.

But even if it is "just carelessness"... If one finds herself faced with an unplanned pregnancy, the decision isn't whether or not to have an abortion. The decision is whether or not to have the baby.

Those are my views on the issue.

I used to think I would never be able to have an abortion personally, but I was pro-choice. Now my opinions have changed and I think I would totally, definitely be able to make the decision to have an abortion, if it was the right choice for me at the time I got pregnant. But I still hope to never have to make that decision. I hope instead to only have a baby if and when it is planned first.

And as for the really late-term abortion stuff, I agree... viability really matters a lot I think.
Perhaps abortion doesn't need to really be specifically discussed ahead of time, but it actually might be a good idea.

Perhaps. But it would really kill the mood to discuss and be in agreement on every possible consequence of having sex. From pregnancy to various STD's to possible directions and emotions resulting from the shared intimacy. There would certainly be a lot to discuss and even what you thought you were in agreement on can change when a discussed situation becomes reality. Or, you could do the best you can to arm yourself with knowledge and protect yourself from unwanted consequences. Because no matter how you plan your sex life, it is very unlikely that it will turn out how you envision.
"Because no matter how you plan your sex life, it is very unlikely that it will turn out how you envision."

Amen, brother Reggie!
Of course. And I am well aware of this lol. ;)
Of course. And I am well aware of this lol. ;)

Good! Set the bar low, at least for the first time, so you are pleasantly surprised. Set it real low. ;-)
Let me clarify that I am not advocating having no discussions prior. I'm just pointing out that you have only so much control and can only reduce risk so much.
But yeah that is what I think makes sense, discussing stuff like this at a time when you're NOT right about to have sex lmao. So you're not spoiling the mood. ;)


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