In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

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I agree. Personally I don't weigh it up in terms of life but in terms of suffering. I don't think anyone could deny a full term baby is alive, but the suffering for both mother & baby would be much greater if you attempted to abort it. As others have said, personal choice does sometimes cause suffering to others, but that doesn't make it a wrong choice. Doctors have made a cost analysis & have come up with a suitable window in which an abortion causes the least physical suffering. The woman must weigh up many different causes such as her future life, whether the baby would suffer through being born in to that life, and a million different reasons.

No two cases will be the same & all will require thought.& heartache, no one can make that desision for someone else. I don't think the fact that the baby is alive has anything to do with it. We're not talking about murder.
There will always be cases where one person's rights infringe on another person's rights. That's one of the main reasons we have laws, to regulate and control those cases.

Personally, I lean towards the fetus starting to gain more rights as it becomes sentient. Brain wave activity, learning capability, that kind of thing. And even that is not a 'click, we have brain waves so the fetus is now a fully recognized human being' statement but more of a 'the more sentient the fetus is, the more finely balanced the question of rights has to be'. At a month, there are no brain waves (and no brain), so no rights. At 8.5 months, it's developed enough to survive on its own, should it need to, and the mother's rights should no longer have absolute, automatic primacy over its rights.

There is no quick, simple, one-size-fits-all solution, which is why having laws with some wiggle room (medical necessity, etc) is needed. There are medical complications, extenuating circumstances, all sorts of things that have to be taken into consideration in making such a decision, and no simple law can codify it without acknowledging that a lot of case-by-case analysis is needed.
At a month, there are no brain waves (and no brain), so no rights. At 8.5 months, it's developed enough to survive on its own, should it need to, and the mother's rights should no longer have absolute, automatic primacy over its rights.

I agree in practice. I think the SCOTUS got it right, although they dodged the question and left the debate. While late term abortions should not be banned absolutely, I do think that as a pregnancy progresses, the woman begins to cede some of her rights. I don't think that a woman should be able to demand an abortion ending in the death of the fetus at 8 months of gestation without a sound, medical reason. And at 8 months, I don't know if their is a sound medical reason for aborting and killing the fetus. At least, not with modern medicine able to keep it viable.

Tricky, tricky.
Precisely. Evil twin. :D
I love men debating this for women. I really don't think, except if it is your body being invaded that you have any right to say anything.
I guess since I'm not gay, I shouldn't fight for gay rights? Or, since I'm not black, I shouldn't say anything about racism. Seriously, the argument that I am a man and should remain silent is about the most offensive thing anyone has suggested to me in awhile.

Similar to Neal's sentiment, I have a wife, sister, nieces, daughter, and many other females I care about. I have every damn right to say something.
Well said, Reggie. Cathleen's comment is roughly equivalent to religious people stating that atheists should not be allowed to have an opinion on religion because we're not religious.
Men have every right to debate this as well, like what Neal said as well as the fact that the male in the realtionship with a woman who wants to have an abortion (IMO) should have some type of say so, but that's just me. not to mention, Freedom of Speech..
Rm- Freedom of speech has everything to do with men being able to put their 2 cents in on the conversation, any conversation.
I think Joli and RM are both right. Men have right to debate it, but, only women have right to make the final decision.

@JM - that is what the debate is about, so merely stating this doesn't change anything for men AND women who don't accept this premise.

And I find it absurd on multiple levels that a feminist would tell a man who supports her rights that he has no right to do so. Well, guess what? I'm not doing it for Cathleen. I'm doing it for the women I care about and the principles in which I feel strongly about.
Private speech is not protected under the first amendment. If I got Joli pregnant there is now law that says she would have to ever discuss it with me.

You are talking about compulsion, not free, or "private", speech. Free speech means that if she wanted to talk about how you got her pregnant, privately or publicly, she has that right.
It was my husband I was parapharsing. As a father of daughters and grand-daughters, he said men have no right to say anything about how a woman manages her body.

Unless your sperm connects with a woman's egg, you have no say in what she does with the resulting pregnancy. And even if you are the bio father, your opinion should not be the deciding factor on whether the woman carries the baby to term.

I happen to agree with that male perspective. Debate all you want, express your opinion.
Most laws about abortion come from a RELIGIOUS ruling class of white men and THEY should not be making decisions over a woman's body.


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