In this discussion I would like to talk about abortion. It is always something I have felt very strong about and would argue to the ends of the earth on. I have always been Pro-Life, always. Ever since I became an Atheist, this topic keeps popping up in my head. Since it is something I have not wanted to confront, I have been pushing it to the back burner. Now that I have given it some thought I would like to tell you where I used to stand and where I stand now. When I was a Christian my thought process was "Abortion is Never the right choice unless the mother and child will both die." So even if the child were to survive and the mother dies, abortion is still not the right choice. Some might even consider that murder, I guess. To answer this question I'm sure someone will ask, Yes I would have and still would give up my life for my child. Well, now I'm sort of seeing things a bit different. If a female gets raped and gets pregnant from it, abortion is ok, (sad all the way around - for everyone).  If a woman chooses to abort a baby due to the risk to the mothers life, Ok. If the baby will have a very very very difficult life and in turn make the parents have an equally difficult life, ok. To me abortion is a horrible thing, if someone wants to have an abortion just because oops I got preggo. That is horrible. If you don't want kids do everything in your power to NOT get pregnant. Simple as that. Life is a beautiful an precious thing, and yes I do believe it is special.  Any and All comments are welcome :)

Tags: abortion, pro-choice, pro-life

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If you know you don't want a child you should never be made to even chance becoming pregnant.. It is your uterus! I am sorry that you were made to go through that!
I think this discussion has brought up a new "cheval de bataille" in that we atheists should be actively fighting for access to free and accessible contraception AND free and accessible sterilisation services. In Canada this medical service is free, but only remotely accessible, we've only won half the battle, in the USA it's a double battle. What a challenge.

I think sterilization for both men and women should be made available and free, I think birth control should always be made available for free. 

Condemns too!

E. Nigma - I completely agree with everything you said, We have (from what I can tell) the same view on abortion. Glad to know there are people who feel the way I do, and like you I am just now figuring out where I stand on a lot of this (however, My views were previously disstorted by religion and so now I must make adjustments). I'm glad to see that you got as much out of this discussion as I did.
Thanks for replying to this topic :)

Jean Marie - I agree that it is the womans right to decide what she can do with her body. I am just voicing that I don't like third trimester abortion and that I think THAT should be illegal (unless medically necessary) and I don't like aborting a baby due to no medical reason (ie carelessness) These are my opinions. Will it change anything? NO. But in as much as I don't agree with somethings and some peoples views on abortion that doesn't mean I am not open to a change of opinion as I hope that others on here are open minded as well. I also know that there ARE thousands of children in need all over the world, this saddens me. In a perfect world no one would suffer and everything would be "hunky dorie". But that is not the place we live in. I can only hope that the women making the decisions think EVERY aspect through and think out every scenario possible. Having a child and caring for that child is the most beautiful thing a woman could experience (IMO). Like I have stated earlier, i have 4, does that mean my life is perfect? Hell NO.( a person without children by choice goes through some of the same ups and downs in life that I do.) But I wouldn't trade it for the world. :)
Joli wrote: Having a child and caring for that child is the most beautiful thing a woman could experience (IMO).

So you think every woman should have a child regardless of whether they ever want to or not? Because they are missing out on this experience? This almost sounds a bit like religious dogma on the roles of women...somehow we are not fulfilling our full potential if we don't want to have any children and be a mother. I just got out of a religion that told me that I wasn't fulfilling my divine role as a woman because I didn't want to have a lot of children and that even though I have one, I don't want more and I don't absolutely love being a mother. I love my child, but I"m more than a mother. I had a horrible pregnancy and horrible birthing experience...to me it wasn't the most beautiful experience. I'm just saying that painting a wide brush on what the most beautiful experience should be for women is really damaging. That's great if it is and has been the most beautiful experience for you, but it's not that way for every woman. We're each different and have different needs and wants. I don't know if that's what you meant...but my wounds are still fresh coming from my own experience with religion and that just scares me. Many woman will find their own beauties to experience even without being mothers. just my two cents and I know that this is completely off topic...I know this is your opinion, but I just wanted to poke a little hole in it is all.
I have to say, everybody, that this is THE most civil discussion of abortion that I've ever seen . . . and I've seen a LOT of said discussions. It makes me happy to take part.
I've read many discussions on this website so I'm not surprised that this one is civil as well. But I am glad.
Yeah, it is refreshing to be able to argue, debate, and discuss in this manner about such hot topic issues.
Atheist Exile wrote:
Responsibility is an elusive quality. Not everybody is responsible or responsible to the same extent. Everybody might be legally responsible once they turn 18 but I'm not talking about legal responsibility. I talking about responsibility as a part of maturity. Not everybody matures at the same age. Some people NEVER mature.

So trying to foist responsibility onto some people just won't work. If you make contraceptive responsibility a legal matter, then you're turning a lot of people into criminals because they just aren't that responsible. Besides, how do you enforce contraceptive responsibility? Anybody can simply claim that contraception isn't foolproof.

We can't legislate everything. Some things we just have to accept.


I'm not trying to foist anything onto anyone... I'm just trying to refine my opinions by posting them here and see what other people think about them. And if I end up judging someone for what they did or did not do, that's my right, isn't it?

I would try to make sterilization a legal matter... is that foolproof enough? And, as far as I know the process can be reversed (I know only about vasectomy reversal, but they may be others), so you can only win from this.


Neal wrote:
I will never agree with the anti-choice crowd, and that's what they are. Everyone as I've said earlier in this conversation is pro-life, calling yourself that means nothing.

Call it what it is, pro-choice or anti-choice, quit trying to disguise the real intent with pretty words.


I'm not anti-choice and I'm not pro-choice... because it's too generalized. I do support the choice if it's the best one that can be made (like sterilization instead of risking to become pregnant when you don't want a child). The choices vary from case to case...
We can't put everyone into the same basket... but we can all "hop" in the best basket available to us. Of course there will be some who will just do the opposite (even just because they want to do the opposite) but that shouldn't stop the rest. Because there will always be religious fanatics we shouldn't try to live our lives without the fear of some inexistent bastard?

You can say that you are pro-choice in one case and you can also say that you are anti-choice in some other case. At least I have thought about some different cases and realized this. That's why I can't say whether I'm pro or anti choice because it would be a general statement and even a wrong one in some cases.
@E. Nigma,

Sorry, I wasn't using the word, "you", specifically, I was using it collectively. That's allowed in English grammar you know. Perhaps I should have used "one" instead. You (specifically) certainly are NOT trying to foist anything on anybody.
The interesting thing about PZ's comment which I pasted as an excerpt is that I think by mistake, he left out the fact that there is a very definitive natural boundary which is birth. At this point the fetus is no longer a fetus.

But there is no fundamental difference in biology between one moment and the next (aside from how the fetus/newborn receives sustenance). It is like me stepping over the Texas state border and claiming that now I'm a Texan!

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